Watch the recording of our community Discord voice chat where we discuss the tokenomics of Loadpipe Protocol. Gain valuable insights into the economic structure and principles underlying our project. If you want to join the next session, be sure to join the Loadpipe Discord!

The “Loadpipe Community Town Hall 1: Tokenomics” session presents a discussion on ecosystem actors, token flows, and incentive structures. Key points include reserve requirements, product moderation, and dispute resolution mechanisms. There’s emphasis on transparency and autonomy for marketplaces, with considerations for protocol-level punitive measures.

 

Transcript:

(00:00) board that anybody can uh draw on awesome yeah let me open it up yeah I think there there is probably I think there has to be a there a text chat in here again I I need I think we I’ve done it I haven’t done it often either but I think we have to use a different text chat from voice chat we could make a temporary one or we could just use the chatting governance St maybe existing I was going to say uh yeah I guess chatting governance D makes sense so I’ll put the I’ll put the link in there um but yeah so I guess I’ll I’ll start

(01:13) out um and with everyone who’s here so far um so like we said this is our sort of open tokenomics design section um I know John and I sort of have some ideas of what we’re doing and what we want to do um but we haven’t like fully flushed out what the ecosystem looks like what the token flows look like um and and some pretty like sort of core questions of like how we want to approach um different user roles and um token gate things if necessary um and so I wanted to go through and just understand the

(01:49) different actors in the ecosystem what their motivations are what different actions um they they can take whether or not those actions are good neutral or negative and um um you know that’ll help us decide where where we want to send incentives um in the form of tokens um so there’s a couple like guiding philosophical things um and so I’m I’m going to uh in the figma um I’m going to uh Spotlight me um and so that just means that like people will generally follow my um uh my screen and so you can see sort of what

(02:32) I’m looking at and I just wanted to start with like a quick discussion of um the Federal Reserve System and the way that that is like a token incentive mechanism how it basically implements staking um and you know how what what sort of like lessons we can learn from that in in thinking about token design um so I don’t know how familiar everyone is with um the way the treasury Department works and the way the Federal Reserve work but in uh just a quick overview um it all sort of starts with the treasury Department of the UN and

(03:02) again I’m talking in like the the Federal Reserve System United States federal government because that’s where my experiences people are from different countries their systems you know their Central Banking systems function roughly the same um but there’s obviously like differences in different localities and jurisdictions different sort of government types and everything like that but in the US we have the treasury Department the treasury Department issues treasury bills which are short-term debt notes which are

(03:27) medium-term debt and bonds which are long-term debt and that’s to finance govern governance operations so they issue t- bills or or notes or bonds and they receive money dollars from commercial banks for holding these t-s so you can understand this as a basic staking mechanism basically if you stake dollars with the treasury by accepting their St stake token which is the T Bill the T note and T Bond then you receive staking emissions in the form of interest um at maturity when that um that note uh exits its

(04:05) maturity so in the case of T bills it would be uh up to a better year so after a year you receive the the same money back from the treasury um plus a little bit of Interest how do they pay you that money well they pay it to you with tax revenue or more often uh by selling more t- bills um and so if you’re asking hey that kind of sounds like a Ponzi scheme where you pay old investors with new investors well look you you are right on track it is a Ponzi scheme but it’s a Ponzi scheme uh where they use that

(04:36) money of that sale or at least a portion of it to to buy guns and bombs to enforce uh you know their their their Pony nomic so you know that’s just sort of the way it works so then we enter the Federal Reserve and the Federal Reserve you can think of as sort of as a dow you know it’s not decentralized and it’s not autonomous but it is an organization and it’s a governance organization that resides over the US economy um it purpos is to theoretically maximize employment stabilize the value of USD in

(05:06) international terms and control long-term interest rates and they basically have you know three highlevel functions um to accomplish this there there there are some other things like quantitative easing um and some other tools that they use from time to time but generally they’re using these three governance operations in order to set interest rates and they each have their own um impacts on The Wider economy so so the first is to set reserve requirements of uh consumer Banks so as they raise reserve requirements it means

(05:37) that there is less money to lend out at commercial Banks because they have to to keep more in reserves and it means that there is less lending conversely when they reduce reserve requirements the opposite happens there’s more money to be lent by consumer Banks and so there is more lending or at least that’s that’s the idea you end up with more money floating around in the economy second is setting interest rates and this is interest rates on um intraday loans that the Federal Reserve will provide to Consumer Banks so it you know

(06:07) if they have a certain amount of reserve requirements sometimes the the consumer Banks need to take short-term loans from the Federal Reserve in order to meet those reserve requirements and as they increase the interest rates it means that there is less lending inra Bank lending which means that there is less money which also results in uh sort of less loans at the consumer level uh and conversely with lowering the interest rates increases the amount of lending that these banks are willing to engage in and increases the amount of money

(06:36) flowing around in the economy and then finally we have open market operations um consumer Banks again are the the sort of consumer Banks and institutional investors are the initial buyers of treasury bills and so the Federal Reserve will come in and either buy those governance Securities and give money to the consumer Banks or it will sell government securities to the consumer Banks and take back money depending on whether or not they think there’s too much money or not enough money uh just washing around in the

(07:04) economy and this this is meant to have the effect again of sort of stabilizing the value of USD by controlling Supply controlling the long-term interest rates because their sort of interest rate their inbank interest rate flows down into the general lending markets which change interest rates at like the real estate level um and you know credit card level and so on and so forth um so these are the the three functions they use to control the money supply and control the emissions of US Dollars uh in into the

(07:35) economy and so so again just a way of sort of understanding um how monetary policy Works in general I hope that wasn’t you know speaking down to anyone um so let’s then move into token design proper and so first let’s take a look at um The Legend um so the these are the basic components that we’re going to use to build um the token flow and the toonomic model I’m using this one just to represent the token that we will issue uh the dollar sign to represent hard currency and that doesn’t have to

(08:05) be dollars it could be usdc could be e uh could be whatever and then you know these are users or actors um within the ecosystem um and then this is going to represent Dow and this is going to represent a Dow’s treasury uh functions are functions between smart contracts so you can see here this is the uh Constructor function which will be called when we launch the token contract and that will immediately you know in this uh construction here uh issue tokens to the Dow treasury um and then you can see this is a mint function

(08:39) which is being called by the tokens splitter. soou and we’ll get into like what that means later um of what what I think about that in a bit but it’s also issuing these tokens um then you have governance tools so you can see here um these are sort of like the initial ideas of like what the uh the governance of the uh the protocol down might look like so it can set staking rates I.

(09:04) E when someone Stak in a different in in a certain role it can set the percentage emissions that are going to that stake role uh to to as an incentive for for becoming um that role uh so so this would be like sort of an employment policy you can think of uh at the Dow level um it can set staking minimums so this is a a de token demand mechanism um where it sets the uh the the threshold for instance for becoming a vendor how many tokens do you need to buy how many tokens do you need to instantiate a Marketplace for instance how many tokens

(09:42) do you need to be a judge to be a moderator so on and so forth they can also distribute its treasury in um in action uh either to to contractors or to help jump start a Marketplace or to provide liquidity to a pool um and then and this is this is in in BR or I mean in uh not parentheses uh is it parentheses um whatever it is it’s in this sort of I forget the word for some reason but UMES parentheses there we go okay sorry about that yes so parentheses uh for highlevel product moderation and so that means like at the protocol level will

(10:26) the Dow be able to decide for instance that people cannot be bought and sold on any Marketplace um you know will it be able to decide that guns are not able to be sold on any Marketplace this is still an open question to me and maybe um you know outside of the scope of this discussion um but but it is something that we’re thinking about in terms of just like what what actions can the Dow engage in all right so that’s an explanation of the Legend So first let’s go down here and let’s make some

(10:57) introductions um so what I would say is go down to the bottom of your screen and there’s like a little thing that says sticky note and just throw a sticky note in here um you know give a brief explanation you know a brief introduction who you are how you’re connected to the project and if you wouldn’t mind throw in a um a an East wallet address um just to just to note that you were here for this early session um and while you guys are doing that um I would and and please let me know if body’s having many problems um

(11:32) I’ll just talk about this sort of other section um so I don’t know how much how familiar everybody is with toonomic design but if you want to go back like afterwards um and take a look at some some educational resources on um these things I linked some videos maybe these aren’t the best videos but like uh they’re the first ones that came to mind I think they will be instructive um so like how maker Dow worked maker Dow was maybe the first first successful protocol I would say it’s the first

(12:02) successful protocol Dow released on ethereum maker is the company that issues D the the D stable coin and so explaining how they balance D emissions versus maker emissions um is is a good way to understand sort of uh basic tokenomics and then curve is a little bit more of a um Advanced explanation you know there’s this thing called The Curve Wars um which was a um uh you know basically it’s like the way it’s people competing over the way that curve emits tokens but the long and short of it is that curve emits tokens

(12:42) um to incentivize liquidity being provided to pools um and and so this is an action that they want users to engage in and so they incentiv incentivize it with their token emissions um third is a playlist on toonomic design from Matty tokenomics which is actually part of the stacks Community um so little little shout out to to Jose our resident Bitcoin uh Bitcoin proponent um so Stacks is a layer two on on bitcoin um and so this is a this is a guy who’s embedded in that Community to give some really good talk on on the nature of

(13:19) token off and then finally is um one of my favorite people in crypto am Solani it’s a long interview with him about um Dow in in in particular and um stable coin so he’s the inventor or the the co-founder of the mool lock Dow and the inventor of the mo lockout framework which we’ll be using quite a bit um and also the inventor of the rise stable coin um and so again there’s there’s some governance minimization there um high is another example um which I have which is a a fork ofai um which I have

(13:55) in the sort of required reading section so all this is really good in ter of thinking about um governance not so much in terms of tokenomics um but these are like sort of core governance resources and understanding like how incentive mechanisms exist how to prevent um Dows from having their treasuries captured and how to think about how Dows take actions and and what it is that Dows do right um so th this one for instance uh again both these are by Spencer Graham uh it conceptualizes um the decision that Dows

(14:29) are making not as like sort of binary things but whether or not to take an action Dows are always concerned like in decision making governance is always about taking an action or you know not taking an action which you know you could think of as an action as well um and so that brings us to um to the different ecosystem actors um and so I have this this written up right here um but at this point maybe let’s uh let’s just open up the disc discussion um oh I didn’t go over the right side of the graph um or fully over it um mandate and

(15:05) purpose um is what we’re going to write in circles so like what do these what do they want to do um or like what do they need to do what are their jobs is what will be in in this circle um the the rectangles are actions and these are broken up into just sort of like neutral actions things that will just happen uh actions we want to incentivize so that would be like the green rectangles and actions we want to disincentivize so things things that they might do that we don’t like that are bad in the system

(15:35) which we could possibly Implement disincentive mechanisms for like uh token slashing of of Stak tokens uh the horizontal I mean sorry the vertical rectangle is a smart contract and uh the diamond with a token inside is a wrapped token um so so for instance a token might pass into a smart contract and we might output a state token um as a result so uh let’s open it up here um like I said I’ve identified these five categories of people of stakeholders and actors within the ecosystem um are there any that I’m missing are there any that

(16:13) uh we think ought to be added um I mean I’m thinking of some that might not really fit as a role but you know like community community people like helping with the events ises that count or or uh content is that in any of these well so this is so that would be um so to to draw the distinction here like these are the things that we can validate like sort of onchain um so there’s like I mean I guess that’s true but these these are the things that happen sort of autonomously these are the the roles that we want to like have autonomous

(16:57) within the ecosystem um and I’m actually kind of thinking at like I mean it’s a good question like where do we separate um the protocol level uh actors versus the um Marketplace the marketplace level actors because a moderator the definition of a moderator would be somebody like recategorizing a product like reporting a on miscategorized you know or or misinformation on a product is that a moderate okay but yeah yeah I mean I think that would be that would be one function would be um uh product uh product listing

(17:44) checks um I think also like uh maybe checking like reviews I mean there’s I don’t know if like there’s you know look at Amazon and others there’s professional reviewers that that are like they’re not normal buyers they’re they’re like uh I guess you say wh listed or they’re called Vine reviewers and Amazon Amazon Vine so they’re they leave reviews and they’re incentivized reviews basically it’s like legal incentivized reviews by Amazon because a lot of people were doing it

(18:17) outside of the Amazon to and just being paid or or given free products so Amazon kind of took that inhouse and made the Vine Program and people are approved as Vine reviewers they’re like professional reviewers okay so these okay so these would people be people uh who are like so thrusted reviews yeah or you can call them creators content creators I’m not sure if that would be a moderator as well or it would be a sep dedicator would wouldn’t these guys be at the marketplace level so I thought this ecosystem actors this is at the

(18:51) protocol level right why am I getting confused I mean like so I think that’s part of what we’re like trying to Define right now um so like moderators I do think exist at the protocol level um but you know these questions of like well do you know are there like Marketplace level moderators as well um are they two different classes you know you know because because again this this data that they’re reviewing definitely exists at the protocol level um rather than at the marketplace level and so so yeah where do there and and also

(19:29) like one thing to think about is like emissions happen at the protocol level right so this is like we we’re sort of defining where uh Protocols are allowed to admit um because like all of these EOS yeah I I would guess I would say that yeah all of these ecosystem actors exist at the protocol level um because they can sort of go in between you know their Market different marketplaces and they exist on different marketplace right um with maybe the exception of buyer no because again so buyers and vendors they’ll both

(20:09) engage in like a sale and that sale will be governed by protocol rules right but your buyers have nothing to do with the with the protocol as far as they’re concern they approach a Marketplace they operate in a Marketplace and then they go off as far like that’s all they right as far as right as far as they know they’re not dealing with the protocol but like on the back end they are they are technically like like so when you think about it like um a product a product listing happens at the protocol level and then is displayed at

(20:42) the marketplace level and the marketplace can act as a filter um for which products uh are designated at the you know that are um visible in the marketplace but technically when a sale happens it’s calling functions at the protocol level and so again you can you can do emissions and when we’re talking about token emissions the token is emitted from the protocol it’s not emitted from the individual uh uh Marketplace um because like so again so let’s let’s talk let’s I guess make a take a step back and just like Define

(21:16) this a little bit better so we have this like load pipe Dow um and the load pipe Dow is making these sort of decisions high level decisions about uh protocol incentives and then and um they like uh a couple of people get together and they decide that they want to instantiate a Marketplace and so they call and and John I would love your your input on this as well so like they call a smart contract

(22:38) which is like create Marketplace and this is like uh uh d like the marketplace Dow Factory um and then that creates a dow um and we’re going to have to add like

(23:42) there’s there’s going to be like some parameters here right there has to be some parameters here for like maybe which Justice module they’re using or maybe which um uh you know which tokens they’ll accept um and then yeah this D is responsible for uh and we’ll call this for now hza um and their governance responsibilities would be things like

(24:45) uh product [Music] filtering um would we would a vendor have to stake uh John there’s a question for you would a vendor have to stake into a specific market place down no they’re staking they they become a vendor at the protocol level correct I mean we’ve been discussing this I don’t know if or I guess so it depends on how we yeah sorry mik no no I think I’d love to hear the answer but you’re you’re sl it depends on how we design it yeah I mean we could we could require that or not I well this is this is sort of the

(25:32) time to discuss it right well I think Bo you you had said you thought it wasn’t a I like your idea you said because if somebody sells guns on a Marketplace they by staking on the protocol they would somewhat indirectly support the guns sold on that Marketplace and so if they just St on the marketplace level it’s kind of their endorsement of that Marketplace I had likeed that idea don’t you introduce a conflict of interest because you’re then saying their behavior on the protocol is what determines if they get a stake in

(26:07) Hamza does that make sense did I ask that question in the order yeah you’re taking go ahead no I’m just I’m just trying to understand where you’re you’re monitoring their behaviors and then based on that tokens are um tokens are then generated that give them what a stake in Hamza or a stake in the protocol well so like this is uh so this is sort of what I I mean by like um like they give they generate the tokens right we can definitely generate tokens but where what do those tokens do um I think so explaining this concept a

(26:45) little bit more tokens splitter. Soul goes to different roles and so like you would acquire a token and you would stake it in a contract to get a uh WRA token um and each of those rap tokens would functionally be their own token right and so for instance if you get if the token is required so you have to buy these people have to buy tokens in order to create a Marketplace and then that gives them governance tokens so they they stake it in here um so like you could even say like they take this token they stake it in here they end up

(27:27) getting the stake WAP token which is their like governance token um or I guess that comes back to them right so and then that’s what like determines whether or not they have governance power to make these decisions right um but we can change the conditions of like like this like having governance power here is also different than having governance power here um because we’re talking about like so there is this base token um which is the thing we admit you know you can think of that base token as being like the dollar um

(28:12) and then each of these staking contracts has their own sort of Interest mechanism right and so that’s decided here right so like when so I my my idea is that like on uh a daily basis or a weekly basis or a monthly basis this token splitter contract is able to call the mint function on this token contract this governance system the load pipe protocol governance system determines the payouts um for different staked roles and so like this is an example of someone staking in as a governor of a Marketplace um but I could also draw out

(28:50) like an example of someone staking in in order to be a moderator right um and then they would be emitted again sort of this base token uh rather than any sort of like State token so they they would be so the base token would be necessary to be a governor or to to inhabit one of the other roles to become a judge to become a vendor which is like the demand side of the token um but in its base form when it’s being emitted you’re not necessarily given that same like role or power if that makes sense uh Nina do you have

(29:31) feedback no no yeah I’m here I’m just I’m just thinking the whole thing for S I have like another eight questions but I’m gonna just think it through I’ll be quiet for for a while no no no please like if you if you have other questions because like again like a lot of this is these are my like rough ideas of like how we’re going to do this but like this design session especially the first one is about sort of hashing out the direction we’re taking the reason why I wanted to like Focus here on the

(29:55) ecosystem actors and specifically the action that they’re taking so so to give you like a little bit of um of context for the way I’ve been thinking about it um I identified some like some actions to incentiv us right so vendor staking right we would like a vendor to stake so that they could sell products right uh we would like honest reviews right um now how do we verify if those reviews are on us is a different question right we would like order fulfillment and we would like product listing so those are

(30:28) all actions that can be taken at the pro protocol level that we can um incentivize by giving like tokens um for doing right but again then then it comes back to this question of balance right like how much are we emitting versus how much are we creating Demand by you know creating uh by forcing people you know like it to give the go back to the Federal Reserve example the US emits tokens to add in for item but it creates Demand by forcing people to pay for oil and dollars right so like the Petro dollar system is is you know the the

(31:06) similar to to to us like saying okay well you need this amount of token to engage in this sort of action that you want to engage in um it’s required by our system um but like we’ll also be emitting tokens to reward people for for acting in a in an honest way and so figuring out how to to verify that Honesty again is like a we’re we’re going to have to get there eventually but first let’s like Define sort of the problems space I I think for me it’s just a lot easier to pretend that Hamza

(31:35) doesn’t exist in this in this the reason why I say that is if we’re using your T Bill example where you have the fed you have a couple of banks where they’re trying to get the banks to either lend out more money they change the interest rates they either sell more government bonds or sell less then it’s purely you’ve got the FED you’ve got your well you’ve got let’s let just say you’ve got the FED then you’ve got your your larger Banks and then you’ve got you know the

(31:56) common man if we run those three levels then that’s pretty much low protocol any random Marketplace and which it is your vendors are and then I suppose customers what you’re trying to do is incentivize vendor Behavior or vendor action on the protocol actually list a product on the protocol product detail so that’s that’s one action I would say that that’s completely different than from incentivizing vendor behavior on the marketplace which is making sure you don’t have Dody reviews so was sorry go

(32:25) ahead well I was going to say so to to this point actually you know I do think you’re on to something here in that like but but the thing I think um like load pipe doesn’t offer an interface for products to be listed right so like Hamza would be the interface for people to actually interact with the protocol right like you can’t interact I mean it doesn’t make any sense to interact with it at the protocol level it’s just that the protocol is controlling sort of the emissions right and so it’s sitting on

(32:52) the back end figuring out how tokens come about but Hamza is the place where like so okay okay okay so this starts to make sense now the emissions are going to the marketplaces based on the number of uh so so now the the the the marketplaces are incentivized to get people to sign up and post products in their ecosystem right like that that’s an incentive that makes sense because now okay so now the token outflows are flowing through the marketplaces um and we know that because people are using their um their front

(33:25) end and with some signature that it’s like be like it’s going through their governance mechanism their Dow right so like a user now comes to and uh maybe I don’t know how to represent like a a website let’s see here I guess I’m just going to use a square and I’ll use and this will be uh let’s make it I don’t know gray all right so this is the hza UI or Hamza right and this Dow is maintaining this this UI and it’s the only place where um

(34:28) where like like a UI is necessary for users to come and actually interact with with the Dow so so we have a vendor who comes along right they uh they list a product it goes through the Hamza UI um which has some you know some way of like it’s going to be calling functions oh oh oh oh I see I see okay so load pipe is a dow that has sort of these top level functions but it can’t call them itself you have to instantiate a Marketplace to be able to call these functions so it is an instance of this like sort of Dow class that then is

(35:31) instantiated here and and it makes those functions callable functions like list product um so it makes these sort of necessary but load pipe is the thing that’s doing sort of like the backend governance you can’t do these like sort of protocol level governance things at the marketplace level but you can call the individual protocol functions at the marketplace level um and oh oh oh does that make sense John uh oh yeah I was just clearing my throat go ahead continue no no no I’m I’m no I’m asking

(36:03) it like that wasn’t a a response I’m just asking does that yeah no no no I didn’t have a comment okay no I’m I’m asking you does that make sense oh it does yeah um I think so if I followed you I just left the room for a quick second it came right back in um what I was talking about was like okay load pipe is like a class of doubt and it has access to these sort of like governance functions um to set like protocol um uh which should we call it protocol uh parameters um and and it has access

(36:40) to the functions like list product or buy Pro you know like or start order right um but it can’t actually you can’t call them at the load pipe level you have to instantiate a like you know an ex functional an extension of this Dow class as a Marketplace it loses access to these top level uh governance functions but gains access to like the protocol functions like list of prod um and yeah Jose I know I I know you wrote a note over here I’m gonna actually go over here and look at it um andr resolution and

(37:21) sell yeah I mean I so to this and I and I you know don’t stop your your question up there but like uh I think of this like maybe maybe they’re engaging in like escalation so like they’re looking they’re like looking for products to escalate to a dispute resolution mechanism where judges exist and maybe someone’s wearing both of these hats where they’re both moderator and judge um but but yeah like I think they’re just two separate processes like a moderator will go through and be like

(37:49) hey um you know I think this product is is wrong and they’ll escalate it to a dispute resolution mechanism one thing I was thinking about last night is like AI agents can have wallets um and can call functions and so there’s nothing stopping us from like instantiating a couple AI moderators or even a couple AI judges um or or even someone from spinning up AI moderators and AI judges so it’s like something something to keep in mind that like um unless we Implement some level of civil resistance uh they

(38:21) like some of this is going to be done by Bots and there’s like sort of nothing we can do to stop it I think it’s normal I mean stock high volume stock trading is Bots right I mean I’ve I’ve been in some calls with debt decentralized exchanges and a lot of these uh participants are just having scripts that are running Bots and maybe they’re human formulas that control bots so I I feel like that’s okay right I mean we could govern how just yeah I mean I think okay or not it’s inevitable yeah um especially as as

(38:55) as Bots get a little bit better you know maybe that’s a good thing maybe we can run our own box and they can you know buy and burn tokens that they earn that’ be nice um so I agree with what you’ve written Jose this is this is my understanding what you’ve written there that load pipe is the Fed Hamza is the Commercial Bank and as the person who’s going to go get a loan from a commercial bank I have nothing to do with the FED because I can’t buy t- bills from the FED even if I wanted to I would still

(39:19) need to go to an investment bank right so what you’ve written there is is what I’m understanding at the moment so I would never see a buyer having anything to do with load pipe any of their issues or their escalations or any issues they have would be dealt with at the marketplace level so there would be roles for a moderator and or judge at a Marketplace level similar to what any other Marketplace would have but potentially you would also have similar roles um at a load pipe level if there are issues with data that is now being

(39:48) potentially pushed out of load pipe if that’s a function so if I as a vendor come on to Hamza or any Marketplace and I type in and I list my product on Hamza that information moves back into the um moves back into the load pipe protocol if at any point in time I’m somehow able to push that data to another Marketplace then that would be a place to have moderators judges y y y at a whole across multiple Marketplace levels right so if in that section you’re in nowo the only thing I think that’s missing is

(40:17) Marketplace as an actor that’s the only thing I think that’s missing on your list but I would remove buyers and I would put Marketplace as the other uh ecosystem actor buyers are probably just a data point so maybe you have some buyer data but I wouldn’t have them as a as an actor for the protocol level no I think this is I think this is like um uh yeah I think this is I’m sorry uh protocol level actors and you write a market like we could just remove these probably or no no no we can remove

(40:50) vendors and buyers ah and um and add marketplaces I mean I I’m I’m I’m also pretty involved with handshake and other blockchain domain projects or even just domain names in general and they have three levels so maybe something we can also think about here in domains there’s I can well I can then there’s Registries and registar right or or do we want to go there like maybe there’s applications to be in certain categories maybe maybe certain categories like even Amazon Gates certain categories for sellers

(41:31) maybe we could have like certain categories could be highly restrictive and for you to have that category allowed in your Marketplace maybe you need to have certain permission or uh from the from the protocol maybe it’s by category you have to apply by category to be able to participate in certain categories in your Marketplace and maybe maybe like like Nina says maybe the general retail customers not involved on the so so but maybe the the marketplaces are active in the governance of the of the protocol more than the end

(42:08) user yeah well and so this is I as I’m understanding it and and tell me if I’m wrong Nina but um that we need to split this up into the protocol Actors and The Marketplace actors because yeah exactly yeah yeah so we have like the the protocol actors here because we’ll have moderators and judges at the protocol level as well but then um we also need to have like a Marketplace actors and then that’s where we have like we have the marketplace Governor still we have buyers we have V or sorry let’s do

(42:53) vendors first we have buyers um and then I I guess this is the question do we have moderat we probably still have moderators and judges at the at the uh the marketplace level right so I don’t I don’t think sorry I I might have missed this in something you said earlier I’m not still 100% sure I understand the difference between judges and moderators is the judge like the an Uber moderator that gets the final save I think the the moderator is like um like provide spat so I think of it like um like a neural network so like

(43:33) when there’s like um in order for a neuron to fire it has to reach a certain like activation threshold or energetic threshold and so like a moderator can go on and place a flag on something and after like some critical value of moderator flag something it goes to a dispute resolution process and then the judges are the ones who like make a final decision like like uh do we ban you know do we cut this from the protocol is this review dishonest um you know that that sort of thing so like moderators are like the the the filter

(44:07) to to getting to an actual like judgment okay so just looking at this bit with I don’t know you’re about to change it to make it the I suppose the I don’t know the marketplace actors that’s what you’re about to call it right so I would say if we look at this section now and compare I would say it’s looking at any other Marketplace today so I know um Mike was giving some examples what are the actors that they have on there and then what are the ones you want to add on because you think oh you you’re

(44:31) trying to make Hamza more transparent and you’re trying to make it better so I’m not an Amazon but you know Mike maybe you can share but is there are there any other roles on on Amazon in the behind the scenes Beyond this Beyond vendor buyer moderators is there anything else um maybe even Jose knows this better than me with his experience in purse but there’s you know know we you know I don’t want to make I’m even in India but we talk about India customer support but there’s different even levels of managers right

(45:04) just like any company has like level one level two level three right I’m not sure if that’s exactly how they do it inside Amazon I never worked inside Amazon but as a seller we go to Seller Support And We complain about an issue like a listing issue you know a customer issue a review issue we raised the issue to customer support Seller Support it’s called and then often we get you know AI scripted at Le we feel like they’re scripted responses or copy paste responses and then we try to escalate it or we try to

(45:37) call them um but yeah there’s there’s many different issues in in Amazon I don’t know if we want to go through the different types but of course the no no no I just wanted to understand sort of what you as a seller would who you would interact with uh from an Amazon perspective but if it’s mostly support then yeah I suppose this this looks would be there’s a joke of emailing emailing Jeff amazon.com Jeff basos amazon.

(46:02) com I’ve done it myself I’ve done it myself uh he doesn’t himself reply but it does I’ve gotten responses from that back in the day with issues um account opening issues how closing isues yeah go ahead do we include fulfillment at all like is fulfillment an actor like I I don’t know that it’s something that we can that we want to maybe design from this um point but like networks of fulfillment Services um I think they’re actors in Market places um I I would say maybe that’s a day two thing only because if

(46:39) yeah I think fulfillment is is just yeah I would I you could put it down but I would say maybe it’s worth uh identifying certain roles that you would say are day two so like you know even when you think of the kind of things you do around ads or when you start to extend the marketplace if you want to find your vendors on marketplaces you would have banks on here right you would be able to connect Banks directly to finance vendors so L may be having some day to actors when you start to expand Hamza might be might be good I don’t

(47:08) know if it’s MVP yeah I agree I mean I’m just GNA we’ve been thinking about it but I feel it’s a whole another section a whole another governance of logistics yeah so let’s Affiliates which we already have like an an idea for um and then fulfillment um and then uh anything else that comes to mind I had a question going back up sorry I on the vendors MH I I mean so we talk about Hamza and Hamza is going to be perfect because it’s going to be a dow and it’s going to be wonderful but we’re wanting

(47:54) it to be a Marketplace right so say like ice cream shop for lack of a better word is the second one right so what and and maybe they’re a dow maybe they’re not a dow right maybe they want to be a centralized shop right um so a vendor what would be we’re wanting a vendor to be able to be accessing all the marketplaces but unless they can set up on the protocol level um what would there’s a ice cream shop isn’t going to want to build ways for them to move their listing onto Hamza so so this is the idea of like so

(48:36) this is why I think that confusion existed in the like protocol actors versus Marketplace actors um because technically when a vendor like so like a vendor can only interact with the protocol through a Marketplace but technically it’s writing to like um I mean like I don’t have it like uh let’s like there’s going to be a collection yeah of of smart contracts here um which are like uh you know uh and’s uh there will be like a collection of smart contracts um which you know will be like profile. soul and uh

(49:29) product. Soul um and uh store. and like you know a vendor will have a profile um that profile will own a store right and that store will own products right which are all being written into you know as events to the smart contract and then the data you know will likely be St stored on a different like uh data um data availability layer uh something like Celestia maybe not Celestia but so like all of this like again this is like the the sort of meat and potatoes of the protocol which is owned by load right and so like in your example if

(50:16) um you know someone else comes and uh you know starts ice cream shop right right uhx y z UI um technically what’s happening is like this this is a vendor um they’re listing a product it’s going through the Hamza UI um and I’m just going to move this real quick I’ll get to whatever this is in in a moment um and then that is being written to products that sold right and so then when like the new uh when you know they when this person decides hey I want to move to uh this Marketplace um products. soul will still

(51:22) like uh all all that data will just move to the new U why right again because like these these are both instances of and again you know like you say they don’t have to be a dow they do have to get down um that’s enforced at the the protocol level because it’s inherited like in order to get access to these functions um they would have to be a dow that’s instantiated in the style of this Dow right oh okay so so like this this create Marketplace function is really like calling up here to this Dow to cre

(51:55) create an instance of a Marketplace which is this a consumer Bank in our um uh you know which are like little federal reserves you know um and they don’t have all the same governance functions but they have the same sort of like Marketplace functions and that they can both let you know borrow and lend um and similarly right like you know this one can’t engage at the consumer level it can set some governance parameters around the way token emissions happen um but like you know this is uh you know the the the the so like they would be

(52:31) calling the functions of their Dow to then right to to these and then if you started up a new Dow it doesn’t give a [ __ ] about like where the product started it just knows the product exists and so as long as that it rules that like the product can be listed here then it’ll display here as well okay so as a vendor if I if I set up I I mean I was just thinking the vendor might want to like um more push to multiple marketplaces but they would set up then on any Marketplace and if I set up on ice cream shop and I decide I also want

(53:11) to be on Hamza I will then go to Hamza log in and then I’ll be able to pull that same product from the protocol yeah so the thing to think about is like this you know they’ll be like so the first thing that they’ll do is um like create uh and and I guess this is like sort of just a uh maybe we want to incentivize it we could like give some bonus for it but like let’s say the first fun you know first action they take is create a profile um so they’ll create a profile um and this will be profile that will go

(54:01) all the way up because there’ll be a profile for the market place as well and then also Pro profile so it’ll go through the homy UI but what that request will actually be doing is like writing to profile. so right so they’ll be like minting an nft Pro profile um and and then that’ll exist here and then you know again from once they have a profile they can upgrade to have a store and then they can upgrade to list productss in their store right so you can think of each of these as sort of like nft mint contract where you’re

(54:32) minting your profile nft and then you me your store nft and it’s owned by your profile nftp and then you Min your product nft which are owned by your store NF um and so I guess even in you know now thinking about it like in this construction someone with a profile could have multiple stores which have different products um and those stores could then populate through uh to different so say like this only sells ice cream right this user could pull a sore and lift some ice cream right and that wouldn’t show up in Hamza similarly

(55:03) they could make a profile and then they could have a store that has electronics and maybe ice cream shot doesn’t give a [ __ ] about their electron you know their their ice their electronic store it only cares about their ice cream store and so that store only populate right I’m just I’m just trying to figure out where the vendor would be able to I mean say it’s like a an ice cream phone case so it might be wanting to list on both stores o i how so like if I set it up on one how would I mean the profile would

(55:42) the profile be the same on both stores how would the vendor be like I also want to put it on Hamza like the ice cream store is not going to want the products listed all over the place I mean they shouldn’t be trying to stop it but they’re not going to that’s not in their best interest do they low you know then get into Hamza and say I want you to list this product call this product that I’ve set up so so okay can you can you run through that one more time I’m I was writing down this like how distinguish

(56:13) between um like yeah uh well is if they’re if they’re Prof file is set up then on the protocol level then any Marketplace they will then have like their wallet will then be able to log them in with that the same wallet will get them into all the marketplaces yeah so then yeah how would it would it would be the marketplace yeah so the marketplace is deciding which products so that’s what like Marketplace governance is um so far I’ve only identified product filtering as like the role of marketplace

(56:53) governance um you know but yeah deciding which products it wants to pull from the protocol and display in its UI does the vendor have a choice as to like it seems like the vendor should be like I would like Hamza to list this and then Hamza will be like oh okay it’s not a person I’ll list it or is any product set up available for any Marketplace to list whether or not the vendor wants it um so I would say that that’s probably again so like when we’re talking about so this is actually exactly what we’re talking about right

(57:29) now is like token incentives right so if a vendor is like really killing it on Hamza and wants to be able to list a product that’s outside the scope you know their their stake you know that uh okays them as a vendor is going to be issuing them um more and more of the tokens and past certain threshold they can stake that to have a a governance say in which you know in like adding a product category for instance um and so like that’s that’s sort of the idea of like drafting incentives this way is that you get people that are highly

(58:04) motivated to and and highly engaged in an ecosystem who are given more and more power the more and more they’re contributing to the ecosystems growth right I just want to bring up and I don’t want to add so much complexity but there is a lot a lot a lot of complexity because we get into trademarks and Brands it’s different than vendors so I don’t know I don’t want to like blow everybody’s mind but there are differences of like the brand like Laura you saying like uh allowing this product

(58:36) to be sold somewhere I mean technically there there’s you know just like on Amazon there’s differences of Brands and a seller and so there’s many questions to be still answered like I don’t know if anyone said this and I maybe I missed it but like for example what if I I the vendor want to um list my product on two different stores but with different prices on different stores like do we allow that this I’m not asking the question it’s just an example cuz what we’re what we’re doing

(59:13) right now is we’re finding that we can’t adequately design the token in detail until we design load pipe in detail which is as we find this we’re kind of now trying to do that on uh in this figma I think there’s still a lot of questions to be answered there and like a lot of different design sessions need to happen so I’m wondering oh by the way it’s great to have the community here and Community involved I think that’s awesome weren’t some of you guys at the um the talk at wo W wake yeah I think I

(59:52) think it’s great to see you guys and it’s great to have you guys involved in design sessions I think uh that’s cool it’s really exciting yeah really trying having us John oh our pleas what what about this as a suggestion where where I my mind goes is to the actors though we have some basic actors defined that we know will exist like vendors uh Marketplace as an actor is a good uh good suggestion good thought um so my mind goes to the actors and and asks what makes a good vendor like what what would be a good vendor and what

(1:00:34) would be a bad vendor and then we’ll from that we’ll come up with incentives uh and dis incented that yeah like it’s kind of designed from the outside in like we could also follow threads into the maze I think there’s some value in doing that which is what we’re doing um because there’s just kind of an exploration you know like if we go in this direction where does it take us what questions does it lead to that that has value in itself and I’m writing down some of these questions yes okay and

(1:01:10) um yeah we might I don’t know it’s just a suggestion it’s just a thought we could start from the outside in um tried to come up with like lists of incentives and then disincentives what’s our good seller look like what’s our bad guy seller look like Etc and um that could be useful later when we do have load pipe more fleshed out uh then we will know what to incentivize and disincentivize and then we can start talking about how best to to incentivize and disincentivize those things I can I just clarify can I just

(1:01:44) clarify your question John do you needan a good vendor on H are a good vendor with their product details on the protocol I’m just using vendor as an example like take one of the actors to start with um and just just try to discuss yeah what makes it what makes him a good one of those actors or and what what would be a bad example of that actor yeah I think it’s there a very long list of a good vendor on the marketplace and then there’s a short list of what the vendor is doing or on the protocol in terms of I suppose the

(1:02:18) information it is that they’ve put in put in through HS up yeah um so I would I would answer both differ it depending on okay we’re talking about okay I go on H I put in my my product details um that flows back into the protocol and then technically I have nothing to do with the protocol unless I want to then push out to another Marketplace or so I have less interaction at the protocol level so I would say there’s a limited number of actions I would be taking anyway let alone good or bad ones as opposed to at

(1:02:48) Hamza level there’s a ton of things I could do wrong right or right yeah yeah but no I least question question which I’m going to write down sorry just one sec uh whether going through the marketplace is the only way to get into load pipe or if there’s like also a generic way to get into load pipe Al I guess your then your products would let me write that down if I could just try to squeeze in you know I’ve really thought about scraping us PTO like the US trademark and patent office for all trademarks and using them as like a

(1:03:20) lockup and then allow those brand owners to claim cuz similar to what Amazon does you kind of got to verify you have this brand by being able to unlock a code on the US trademark office and uh you you know actually you guys are helping me think about this more like Nina says the the the seller is more on the marketplace the brand is more on the protocol or the Creator actually we’ve experimented this a lot uh over the years where we make a brand and then we let other sellers sell on that brand a seller and a brand are

(1:03:53) not always the same although a lot of people people Define them as the same you know some people just license they just create create a brand and let other people sell under it like even Marvel Marvel like Spider-Man right Spider-Man doesn’t make their own pajamas they let vendors uh make those pajamas and sell them um so I don’t want you know maybe you guys are making think maybe the brand and the Creator is on a protocol and the vendors on on the marketplace and it could be the brand is on the protocol and the vendor is on the

(1:04:28) marketplace that’s interesting it could be the same there’s many that are both right many are both but there are many that are one or the other like it’s called private label even here in India there’s a lot of Retail Arbitrage sellers I’m meeting that just buy something at Walmart and then sell it on Amazon for markup and but there’s also some that get authorization to be a seller on Amazon of the brand and they’re the the exclusive seller on Amazon they’re permissioned seller and

(1:04:57) they’re the only seller even Amazon themselves sometimes is a seller of the brand I I see the protocol more as a catalog it’s a catalog of product yeah I’m just like trying to figure out how what that looks like from an engineering perspective right because again like this this question that that John got at a little bit earlier and that Nina was getting at um is like you know if if the UI is you know if if Hamza is the only way to like really interact with the protocol like is is ham the only way to interact with the

(1:05:34) protocol or is there some like intermediary step here um that is like the brand manager D you know like so that you know what I’m saying like I I don’t know that that well I I would say if it does you know like I mean it doesn’t I guess in a there has to be some way to to call the functions right and some like UI and someone who’s responsible for the UI and so like so if we’re talking about this like intermediary step I I guess it does you’re right it doesn’t have to be a dow but like

(1:06:14) manager yeah if the brand manager is the protocol I hope everyone’s following this so if the brand manager if the protocol is the brand manager brand manager is the protocol the protocol is a dow but what I mean is uh does the brand would the brand manager need to necessarily if it does exist as a separate entity would that entity need to necessarily be a dow I don’t know I I haven’t I haven’t really thought down that Avenue yet I’m just like raising question in earlier I think it’s might be worth thinking about

(1:06:47) it just from a commercial perspective as a vendor if I came to you and I said oh list on this other thing and as you list on here um you know you can actually push your data to other marketplaces that’s that’s sort of one cell but if you have somewhere else some other sort of UI where I go and officially register as a vendor and then you tell me oh by doing this I will also then push your data to Hamza I think it I think this might be more of a commercial thing than an actually un necessarily a tech thing

(1:07:16) in terms of which one we think is an easier sell to a vendor to say put it in Hamza you’re officially listed but also when you’re ready you can list anywhere else dot I think that’s just simpler than having another intermediary where they go to because you would have to now sell ham but also sell the intermediary at the same time that could be yeah that could be a like a point in the uh um like there’s no direct access to load uh to the protocol um well actually but it can also be optional like if if people

(1:07:49) don’t want to use it like there could be an optional way yeah I don’t really have I mean I I kind of like this idea of of like you have to import your profile to a new like it shouldn’t automatically propagate across marketplaces um like people a vendor or someone with a profile should have to import their profile or like like authorize that Dow well I guess you could I guess you could make it opt in at the pro level and by that I mean like you know a user accesses their profile settings through through a Marketplace UI right so like

(1:08:34) we’re building out you know a framework for for interacting with those different things and they could say you know that that UI could give them the option to be like automatically propagate to all you know uh marketplaces now I I I do think there’s going to be some like geoc constraints like I do think that that’s going to have to be a param parameter of a Marketplace in particular because like uh you know not all vendors will want to will want to sell everywhere will not want to dip everywhere um and or or

(1:09:07) can’t dip everywhere um so yeah I don’t know there that’s another thread that like that feels like there’s a long way to go I I think that one is I think that one is actually quite easy B to be honest in the sense of not every vendor will be approved on every Marketplace because every Marketplace will have their different okay you have to submit then you have to get approved then you get approved then you can import that’s the way I see it so I don’t think that if you push from the protocol to say oh

(1:09:34) set up a profile on this new Marketplace that I’ve never been on odds are the vendor will still need to get engaged to provide additional information um you know there’s some stuff you have to provide before you can maybe become a vendor on a couple of a couple of other marketplaces so in my mind it’s more that they set up a profile they confirm they have a profile and then they pull the data from load pipe or whatever pull is probably the wrong word and then their profile gets their profile then

(1:09:57) gets all the product information but I don’t think you can officially push profile plus product because the marketplaces depending on which country or which Marketplace some of them can be quite rigid in terms of what vendors they’re accepting right and you can’t necessarily prepare for every single on boarding process yeah does that make sense I don’t know it’s like kind of like white listing or something you can log in but it’s not verified or unlocked you got to do extra steps to unlock on the

(1:10:23) marketplace but you can see it pending or you can see like a see your stuff but it’s not like live or active well and it makes this interesting question about like staking so like the way that staking should function um because again as we keep on coming back to like the the the individual marketplaces UI is going to be how people interact with the the protocol and so like how you know so like really the marketplace is going to be the one staking like it’ll have to have like a staking contract that passes

(1:10:56) through the marketplace but then like emissions are just going to go like I think emissions are probably just going to be split to marketplaces like they like when we talk about like uh emitting tokens as like interest on you know a a treasury bill right for instance um like the staking is going to have to happen at the Hamza level in order to be verified as a vendor but that staking like really is wrapped by the Dow that has its own stake which is determining the emissions of tokens that go to the Dow right I think that has to

(1:11:37) be like deterministic to a certain degree like the the protocol or like the marketplace Governors can’t have control over that sort of emissions flow um and how they’re splitting those emissions among the participants God damn um I think my brain fell out fell out of I just wanted to ask a question sorry back to the comment that John was making I don’t know if it links to what you were saying but when he was talking about incentivizing the vendors right so if you’re incentivizing a vendor at a

(1:12:09) protocol level you’re saying okay put all your information on Hamza it has to the more complete it is we’re incentivizing completeness of data once it’s then in there completeness of data but completeness of profile data product data um and the quality the quality of the information is that you’re putting in there the description y y everything it is you know that other marketplaces are requiring so when it then comes to pushing you would also incentivize people to push their products onto say

(1:12:33) other marketplaces or you would just whe whether you would incentivize it or not I’m not sure once they then push their data so that they requires them to either create the profile or whatever um and then the only other time it is that they’re coming back to the protocol is if they’re adding a new product or if they’re changing the information um and to the question you were asking John in terms of allowing different prices I think you would have to allow them to set the prices just because of the

(1:12:55) marginal differences across the different platforms um if they then decided I think it’s more about how much data each vendor is willing to give to the protocol to to gatekeep and how clean and fresh and updated that data is if you’re getting lots of um feedback or I don’t know some something is coming back through the the the governor stream um then you would then take action as the protocol level but I think only the initial actions of the vendor on their data can be incentivized to the level um

(1:13:25) it just it feels like everything else would then have to be at a at a Hamza level but the question I wanted to ask is let’s say I wanted to go in and add another product would I then go back to Hamza and do the original UI update a product or I update the data of a product and then Hamza goes back corrects the the data on the protocol and then the protocol then pushes that out to all the all the other marketplaces I’m listed on or would it happen differently so yeah I I this is um sort of a question question of like

(1:13:55) so think about it like this like Hamza is has its own database and that database is sort of on top of uh the protocol data um and that database includes like personally identifiable information any like extra like if if this Marketplace requires like kyc you know if it’s if it’s shipping somewhere you know like all that will be sitting in like the Hamza database um but when you interact with like uh your product list listing you’re interacting directly like they’re calling it’s calling a function that’s

(1:14:28) sitting on a smart contract which exists as this sort of like other backend database so like so when you interact with the hzi UI you’re calling functions on like this smart contract which is like governing how product data is stored um and so like you are when when you call these functions through the hzi UI you’re directly affecting the the product data at the protocol at least how you know we have it drawn out right here which would then propagate to all the other Market places where it’s where

(1:14:58) it’s listed um because again it it’s like when this Marketplace is like looking at a product like these are okay so say there’s like some ice cream ice cream shop allows ice cream and you have an ice cream here that you have listed um and uh you have a typo you know you wrote strawberry ice cream right um with a u instead of an e um and so like now it’s it’s listed and and you have it you’ve gone through the process of being verified as the vendor on boat um you realize that the product

(1:15:32) is wrong so you go through the hamzi UI and you update it okay strawberry not strawberry not strawberry um all of a sudden like this this ice cream UI is not looking at its own copy of the database it’s looking at the the you know whatever the pointer to that data point is in the the product that sold so so it would update automatically like across databases I’m sorry across UI because again it’s it’s not looking at like individ it’s not it’s not like you update it with Hamza and then Hamza

(1:16:02) updates the the the protocol you’re calling a function in the UI which affects the state of the uh of the the data stored at the protocol level um so it’s like this is this is just the the way you access it but the effect that you’re having is you’re changing it at the protocol level that’s is true one one like detail though is like we can’t really I I don’t know about you guys but I I like the idea of letting marketplaces kind of manage themselves like be their own entities so and you

(1:16:36) know like they the marketplace decides how it wants to uh Implement uh the the protocol and and the functions and stuff like that so we can’t like control if uh like one Marketplace decides that they want to pull the data from the blockchain but cash it locally in their data datase and if they oh certainly yeah if they have implemented it poorly and they just like never update their cash then it just will stay wrong there but I think that’s just part of like the that’s part of the the spirit of the of the uh Venture like

(1:17:08) marketpl so can I just confirm can I just confir so you would have to so if if the marketplace is going to decide how it then interacts directly with the protocol so that means there is a there’s a bit of I don’t know let’s call it selling right because at first you’re thinking oh who are we going out to to get to we’re getting vendors to come onto Hamza um and connect y y um so but then if there’s an existing Marketplace is there then a sell to the marketplace to say oh you know this is we have tons

(1:17:39) of we have tons of sellers we want you to connect to the protocol is so there selling also to marketplaces is there I didn’t realize that yeah this is not my area of the of the that’s what I would think yeah because one of the draws to marketplaces would be like we have all these sellers and products you know the protocol has all the sellers and products that you may have access to is that true what what do you say before you have all the sellers so what do you say to the marketplace because if you need Marketplace I don’t want to say

(1:18:14) sense yeah like buyers attract Sellers and sellers attract buyers it’s like a it’s an ecosystem so what comes first I don’t know they all come at the same time I hope yeah I’m sorry you know I was I was I’m lost again in this like in this sort of like uh the the staking emissions flow I don’t know if you’re paying attention to like what I’m doing on the screen but I’m like trying toing yeah no no no but but I’m asking would you go back and um ask a question again I I sort of missed it as I’m

(1:18:47) because again I’m sort of like lost in thought on this thing I think what what I what I had understood before was like in terms of when you’re going out to attract let’s call them customers or visitors the main attraction will be to people who are looking to either create a new Marketplace or to existing vendors who are currently selling on other marketplaces I didn’t realize that there was also an element to technically sell quote on quote um to marketplaces who would then agree to pull data from the

(1:19:14) protocol to do the product listing so there is a selling to I don’t know I don’t know lzada shop tokopedia you have to there’s something to sell directly to the marketplace where they agree to connect um but the selling point being hey we’ve got tons of your vendors off here but how do I get ton tons of your ton ton a ton of your vendors before I can then go and sell to the marketplace right because a lot of what we’re saying to the vendors is once you list with us we can push your data to other

(1:19:41) marketplaces so I’m trying to understand who you’re selling to and and what you’re selling and who you’re selling to first so I probably need to get that right in my own head first before asking any more questions it’s like a chicken and egg situation and uh yeah I’ll let maybe micro answer they have again this is this is a shift and the the the you know it’s it’s going to be a I think lur even alluded to it earlier about the ice cream shop not wanting the product data to get to other vendor other

(1:20:11) marketplaces I mean and you know we’ve chatted about this you said in some regions of the world like in India there’s more data sharing because there is benefits of data sharing in certain cases but in the west at at least in the US I mean I can’t imagine Amazon W wanting to act in this environment they’re welcome to but it’s a different kind of mindset shift um you know we should think about nfts you know open C looks rare um other major marketplaces they have less competitive defense in

(1:20:41) openc it used to be like the marketplace leader of nfts but they call it vampire attacks and and nft and and decentralized exchanges because it’s very easy for the users to change the marketplace and and new marketplaces come into the ecosystem and dra and kind of like attract all the users to move to their marketplace where it’s decentralized exchange or a nft Marketplace like blur and others so it might be hard to get traditional marketplaces to enter this ecosystem I know actually n and I have chatted about

(1:21:12) that but they might be fearful of losing control or their their users or data so it might just be completely new marketplaces emerging in this that accept this ecosystem and have but it’s going to be commodifying the marketplaces are going to be much like less strong as in web 2 in this ecosystem because users can can much more easily move to other marketplaces so it’s yeah it’s going to be a different comp yeah go ahead B I was going to say the competition will exist between marketplaces on like

(1:21:46) seamless UI and delivery right so um and they’ll be competing I think for for vendor ERS and buyers but like um yeah I mean it just gives power a little bit more to vendors and users to to leave Market places um and uh you know it’ll be how best they Implement um you know whether or not they reflect again I think this gets back to like what are we allowing the marketplace governance to do um because like that is the determinant of like success for Marketplace Governors right so like a Marketplace Governor they they responsib

(1:22:23) ability is like build a good UI and have a good user or like build a good um you know site and then have a good user uh experience right UI and ux is like that’s what they’re in control of and ux in e-commerce also involves like I think fulfillment delivery and so I think maybe that’s something that exists at the the marketplace level um but yeah I mean like I I think I I I I don’t know that like uh integration like because the other thing to think it’s like so these smaller marketplaces or you know

(1:22:59) someone like lzada for instance in order to integrate with the protocol directly either they would have to allow payment in cryptocurrency to to complete the transactions or we would have to build or they would have to build some some interface to do that and also I think that their ux flow just looks different right because like a lot of this like centers on like the to Pure power of like e-commerce um because you’re basically like you have a a buyer and a seller entering into a contract with one another um about spec specifically

(1:23:35) around like fulfillment um and and then like also payments not released uh until after it clears uh you know until it clears escrow um and that escrow happens upon delivery so so like I think it would be a sort of shift in Paradigm I I think it’s Poss to integrate with like existing Market places but I think it’s like way way down the road if it ever exists um I don’t know if that anwers the question I I’m sort of rambling a bit but you know I think we got to keep it really really simple you know I mean and

(1:24:10) allow it to build out there’s you know I think we got to simplify as much as we possibly can I mean this stuff is very complex multiple levels layers abolutely we have to simplify this we got to start yeah I agree with you Mike we got to start at like the simplest uh like the simplest version of what we want and build it up from there what uh it goes back to something that Nina was saying this is a great conversation by the way um vendors and marketplaces so I guess that it needs to be like a double consent like

(1:24:49) marketplaces need to accept vendors and then vendors need to accept the marketplaces like vendors need to say like okay I will I am I’m okay with listing on this Marketplace that Marketplace and marketplaces need to also say uh yeah I want this vendor and that vendor and when they match up then the vendor on the marketplace does that sound like how it should work yeah I’m trying to understand this um sorry I’m still like I’m thinking about this question of like vendor staking on and and doing cuz so this is like the

(1:25:23) core of the emissions question to me um is like where do the tokens emit from and where do they emit to and then how do you control who where those emissions go and so I’m thinking about like okay you have vendor who stakes in a token contract in an individual Marketplace that marketplace now has a bunch of our stake token which it then restates right in the larger stok the like protocol staking contract the like Marketplace staking contract and then the protocol looks at that to determine like the proportion of emissions right does that

(1:26:06) make sense uh what now so okay so who are we admitted to is the question right I can I jump in and maybe B real quick or go ahead so my my thought is I think we Nina says the end user is not going to really know the load pip protocol they’re going to know the market most likely the marketplaces they work with I think we got to break it down where the vendors are engaging with not vendors the marketplaces we are a protocol of marketplaces and I think we should admit to marketplaces and give marketplaces kpis for for TR for their success and

(1:26:41) then maybe admitting to the better performing marketplaces and marketplaces are trying to get vendors and users and buyers there it’s like a B2B right like the the mark like we’re trying to incentivize the marketplace to be good actors and like I think it was n or somebody says why would a Marketplace use this protocol I think we’re giving the better performing marketplaces the emissions for their for their performance but but this is like this is so this is like so one I would say this is like core like the core question of

(1:27:24) how we do emissions and yes I agree like emitting to marketplaces Mak sense but like we can’t I don’t know that we can give kpis right like we can give like we can give sort of indirect kpis in the sense and this is sort of what I’m saying is like if a Marketplace has a staken contract for vendors then we know how many vendors are signing out through individual Marketplace if we have a reputation score for vendors then then we know like the aggregate vendor sign up and like reputation score of something that’s going on in an

(1:27:59) individual Marketplace that’s like sort of a kpi that could be then used to determine like how how much token emissions are coming from the protocol to the marketplace and then again you there has to be like these sort of predefined routes that when it emits it automatically splits when hitting the Dow to lower level you know uh people within the protocol so like best ERS are getting the larger percentage of the vendor stick right um super buyers are getting a larger percentage of the vendor STI or of of the buyer stick

(1:28:32) right and so like these different sticking contracts create different roles those roles are what we use you know the the marketplace is can determine how much they want to incentivize maybe like the percentage of incentive to individual vendors buyers judges moderators and then the protocol uses like those those signups that sign up data you know in order to determine like in a programmatic way where it’s directing emissions like which marketplaces it it likes the most um and yeah and that can change based on like

(1:29:07) where activity is happening because again if we we have this model where like each of them is a dow and sated in style um but access to different functions from the pro protocol Dow then we have this sort of like internal ID which is showing us where the activity is happening which UI is be um so so anyway um yeah I think that that actually cleared that was actually like a pretty good unlock for me just in terms of like how that flow how the incentive or like how the emissions flow works yeah okay that’s pretty sick yeah

(1:29:39) I hope is everybody following another angle oh go ahead go ahead John but maybe others that haven’t spoken could could say if they’re clear or not or they have go ahead John yeah yeah please no no finish your thought mine would better come after mine’s better after after comment well I’m just trying to call out maybe some others that are here that haven’t spoken for a bit if they’re following or have feedback yeah is everybody following we’re having a few different sort of uh threads and some of

(1:30:11) them are getting kind of fast are you following do you you agree with this or do you have inputs I I mean I mean I’m trying to figure out what the purpose of the token is and why it’s important because it seems like a lot of this how we figure out how it’s all going to go and what’s going to go where and what the specific value is to each of these players I I think some of that is still soft it’s not figured out and so I don’t know that we can figure out purpose of the token because people

(1:30:55) aren’t going to come on they’re not going to come on the marketplace because they want the token they’re going to come on the marketplace as a vendor because they want that’s really they want the value proposition for whatever for however you say that you want to come on the blockchain they’re going to come for those reasons um and the token can tweak stuff and buyers are going to come for something else besides tokens well um finish I that’s go ahead I mean the the purpose of the token is trust it’s

(1:31:30) buying trust that I call it trust we’re attracting people to a trusted Marketplace in a in in an basically Anonymous people being able to trust each other because there’s a stake token that they can lose it’s their skin in the game I guess it could be other tokens I guess technically but by it being our own token we can we can kind of incentivize people like Bo is talking talking about to be good actors and doing what we’d like and using it for governance as well as taking to to wh list as a seller that’s the utility

(1:31:59) token in my opinion yeah the token is to guide the entire system and to by incentivizing and and and disincentivizing so yeah you’re right people don’t come on the uh on the on the ecosystem for the token but they find that they need the token for certain things therefore they’re they’re Guided by that need to perform certain actions and not perform certain other actions is that is that simplify it I mean yeah I I mean I understand but so a vendor coming on is going to need to stake so they’re going to have to put up

(1:32:49) a bunch of money to be able to get on well into the marketplace we are working on an airdrop system talk in a beginning okay but so right in the beginning we incentivize people getting on the protocol that makes sense um but then it’s going to cost money to get on the protocol well they could be antrop yeah I mean we’re planning do a decent air drop yeah attract well I mean I think it’s it’s like it’s like it’s best to look at it in terms of like different so like I made this like sort of Supply man section where we we

(1:33:31) should like really start thinking about like what is the buy side what is the sell side of the token but like from so like let’s talk about like the different roles so from a buyer’s perspective they don’t give a [ __ ] about the token but they do get rewarded you know they should be getting some reward right specifically I think and and this gets back into like sort of why I started here and and you know we like we moved away from this pretty quickly but but we we should maybe and we’re already an

(1:33:57) hour and a half in so we may just need to like um push this to another set uh setting where we like really just dive into this um but but like think about a buyer buyer doesn’t care like they don’t need the token to to go and buy a product they need whatever hard currency you know the the vendor demands um in order to buy the product they just product and then it’s locked in escro and then um you know they get the product they’re happy about it and then we provide an incentive right the the the buyer incentive that that makes the

(1:34:27) most sense to me is for leaving a review leaving an honest review right um like so okay they leave a review they get a little bit of the token right all right so it’s it’s incentivizing uh participation um and but but they don’t have to care just by being we could report them just for being actors because we want to exactly yes yeah yeah yeah and we could yeah we can reward them at certain levels and that that levels can can change based on like protocol governance or even Marketplace governance you know that like th those

(1:34:59) are things that we can do but but the buyer doesn’t really care about the token except that they receive it which would be a supply so they’d be sell however yeah and so like in order for a buyer to buy something they need a vendor well okay so now a vendor a vendor has to buy it right so they’re on the demand side they have to buy it they have to stake it in order to to list products and I think we’ talked a little bit about this this this is something that we need to like parameterize and we

(1:35:27) don’t know exactly how it’ll work yet like stake should have some relation to the amount of total escrow that can be locked by a vendor at any given time um and that’s like sort of an honesty prevention and and that could be augmented by like seller reputation and number of trades right like the the the coll functionally the collateralization ratio can come down over time if like a a vendor continues to act in good you know so like for instance pushing through a sale maybe that doesn’t reward

(1:35:57) tokens maybe that just rewards um maybe that just rewards like a a a difference in multiplier to the amount that you can keep an escrow right um but also like good vendor actions are things like listing products right which is something that can be just straight token emission but also like we can emit based on uh you know like we can say that a vendor for instance has to vest their token so they have to stake it let’s say we want them to stake over periods right so like we can a a vendor could stake over a three-month period or

(1:36:33) a six-month period and and like t- bills notes and bonds we can assign different levels of like interest and a mission based on the length of time they’re willing to commit that stake to um to to generally being verified as a vendor um and and yeah and then like yeah well and this is what I mean the most some of them are not like the most bottom layer of the protocol but they’re all good some of them are like outer layers of the onion maybe we should start at when when we get down to it I mean we’re not going to probably do it

(1:37:09) in this session this session was good for other reasons so um but when we get down to it we probably want to start with the bottom most most basic layers like what does X do and what do we want them to do and what will they be tempted to do and so this is yeah again this this is what this like little Matrix is meant to to illustrate right is like we write down the motivations of each of the participants let me see I don’t know where the oh yeah I don’t know we’ll have to we’ll have to figure out what

(1:37:39) the problem is with that Jose but yeah um uh I mean it should are you muted I mean is he not muted is it he’s not muted but it might be a question about to say it could be a question with your permission he’s kind of high very high he’s like a moderator he’s higher than other speak no no no no no I mean I mean like your computer pres sorry like permissions like it’s possible that Discord doesn’t have access to your mic um I’m not really sure you could try mobile if you log in on mobile or

(1:38:12) others uh try another client try another browser Jose i’ I’ve talked about other things with your computer maybe try a different browser and log in or a or your laptop or your mobile app or others it’s probably a hardware issue or maybe just try to reset your mic and settings true there’s the settings um yeah I think we’re getting we got 20 minutes let’s let’s try to keep this at two hours just I know it’s been it’s been very helpful I think it’s our first time to do this kind of

(1:38:44) community Town Hall I think we should do more of these and and hopefully everybody’s enjoying them we want this to be want to wrap it up just having sort of like more casual conversation or do you want to wrap it up by trying to come to some conclusions like and list out some some takeaways U what you guys can you hear me I hear you now oh finally well uh well um regarding some some comment uh B said recently about buyers you need to take into account that there’s buyer actions also that that are very important to um to

(1:39:21) incentivize or decentivize one of them is the um is uh releasing the escrow on time that that was a big problem in purse you know uh so you want to take that into account and regarding the discussion about marketplaces versus protocol levels I think we should give more more um more more freedom to the marketplaces to list the kind of products that they want to list uh have certain exclusivity requirements ments geolocations Etc you know yeah I’m pretty sure we I agree with that I think I believe I mean does

(1:40:01) everybody agree with that like I think we want to let the marketplace have their freedom uh generally yeah there’ll be a list of things that are Marketplace responsibilities and a list of things that are protocol responsibilities that we’ll eventually come up with but uh yeah I agree like what we come up with will just be a more in detail version of what uh Jose just said yep hi G by the way I forgot you were here how’s it going good good reallying uh most of it some of it’s kind of complex I mean we’re doing it’s

(1:40:46) two separate few different directions well we’re doing two the same time the protocol and the the marketpl are two they’re completely separate we should try to really separate them in our brain we’re talking about yeah the token design but that leads into the protocol design yeah I I disagree I think they’re I think they’re they’re inextricably linked to one another like the protocol and the token yeah I mean they’re not they’re not sorry sorry also guys I think uh Pro the marketplaces should be incentivized or

(1:41:26) decentivize to sort of uh decentivize uh digital Emperor type of behavior for a certain Marketplace so I think um maybe the marketplace would need to stake tokens perhaps you know that’s what I think I think the protocols got to govern the marketpl or yeah like I really feel like the protocols in charge of the marketplaces or incentivized Marketplace marketplaces are the ones talking working with the vendors and just the buyers yeah I think that’s that’s this here is like the the individuals get together and they create a Marketplace

(1:42:03) and that is like you can think of this as like there’ll be a c so that and that can be set by protocol Dow like what is the threshold of tokens that you have to own in order to instantiate a marketplace right so again that’s sort of on the buy side right like you have to buy a c certain amount of tokens in order to be able to create a Marketplace um and then and then yeah those in depth stakes and then you know those stake tokens get emissions you know that are set by the staking rates of the protocol

(1:42:34) government am I am I wrong to say I I don’t know I’m somewhat active in in Cosmos and there’s validator sets and to be an active validator set you have to have a certain amount or the top 100 you have to be like the top 100 most staked and is that proof of stake in general I’m not sure but you it makes me think of that right like a Marketplace is a validator and they’re almost got to they have to also contrib they have ability to contribute to the governance of the protocol on behalf of those stake to them in the

(1:43:06) market in the validators as a validator at least because I I participate in that in in Cosmos pretty actively and various protocols and go and I have to stake I stake but then I have to choose a Marketplace to stake too and then that validator then takes my vote if I don’t vote in the governance is that can we can we connect it like that is that it all is there something we can learn from that yeah I mean that’s yeah it’s it’s simple to concept right um I think that uh you know it’s a little bit more like well I

(1:43:42) mean yeah I mean it’s kind it’s a little bit more like e where we just set like a threshold um and then I mean like the way e does Pro stake is like they like yeah and there should be Marketplace laughing right if if a Marketplace like there should be a way to just like you know uh even if it’s like social to to S because it won’t be like um you know like we’re not doing like in E and and uh and Cosmos you know what they’re looking at is like whether or not the the transactions are ordered

(1:44:21) correctly and like you know if they comport to like the the general protocol rules of like the way that you you know like the order in which they need to come and like whether or not following uh spend rules and and and acting you know honestly in that way instead it’ll it’ll be like you know again it’s more like e where like you just have to have 32 e in order to become a validator um and then like there won’t be a programmatic way I think to determine whether or not like a Marketplace is um is acting honestly

(1:44:58) like again we we’ll be able to see some data on like how transactions are processing through them but but we’re not doing anything in terms of like ordering transactions or like anything like actual actual protocol level um like this is like an application protocol rather than like a a settlement protocol um and yeah yeah uh so so like at the protocol governance level like the load pipe governance Lev level we should be able to like punish malicious uh marketplaces um through like a slashing mechanism but that would be something

(1:45:34) that would like we would have to involve judges right that that’s why I think a token emission should occur every time a transaction is made and you know somehow that that token emission transaction propagates throughout the the marketplace and the protocol level every time of transactions but well so when when you say Transaction what do you mean do you mean like a transaction between uh a buyer buying a product sold by a seller so I would say that that’s like the creation of an order in an esro because again like that that doesn’t

(1:46:17) necessarily imply completion right um I sorry go ahead yes yes exactly uh uh every time an escrow is is opened for for a buyer buying a specific product from a SE from a specific seller and then once the escrow is completed that I mean that that uh the the token emission uh opened by the escrow uh creation could be like um a a sort of sted or or suspended how would you call that until the escrow is actually closed and the and the and the transaction is rated by the buyer and by the seller and only then would would would

(1:47:06) that uh would that uh escro uh token escro token uh would it would it uh affect the the individual actors the seller and the buyer h well but I think the problem with that is that there’s a lot of other actions that would require emissions because again so like so one of the reasons why I include like judges and moderators in there is judges and moderators sort of EX act as like employees of the protocol for lack of a better term um you know like Amazon has its own sort of internal judicial mechanism and they have their own

(1:47:46) content moderators and they like hire these people but like if we want to allow people to just like sort of come in enter you know gain some rep as a judge and then sort of like work as a judge like we also have to be like admitting to them and and this is like this goes back to uh I think something I said in the initial like announcement post which was like at a certain point we do have to decide what is better done through token emissions and what is better like and what is better accomplished with just like a stable

(1:48:16) point because that’s like the core question of of like tokenomics I think is like why does your token matter more than just having a treasury and paying people in a stable coin um and and again I I think if we can achieve some level of balance where you know the the emissions are properly uh distributed to the actors in the ecosystem uh then then we don’t need USC you know like if there’s there’s a proper balance of demand and Supply then people can just like judges and moderators can either you know sell

(1:48:54) their tokens um straight into the market um or they can you know stake them in sort of other functions right become protocol Governors or or become Marketplace Governors or start their own marketplaces so on and so for but but what I’m saying is like the although I do think that like a transaction and a an escort creation is like a very primitive action that should elicit some level of emissions there’s a bunch of other actions that we want to incentivize and so like so I think it’s it makes more sense to B them you know

(1:49:28) yes exactly Le on a consistent schedule uh but wouldn’t judges need to have some level of participation in the marketplace to become judges and wouldn’t that participation be determined by the amount of transactions they make I don’t know I don’t I don’t think so so this is this is another sort of open question and and John and I actually recently had had this conversation where like um sometime in the next week we really need to dig down into the specifics of how we’re doing um uh the specifics of how we’re doing um

(1:50:04) dispute resolution and this is why we have you know I think we scheduled a call with you on Monday maybe yeah yeah if we Haven that already then yeah we need to dive into the specifics of like well what does that look like how you know what what are Judges rules how do they become judges I I don’t know if they if we necessarily need them to be um you know participants in the Eco or participants in the in the Commerce ecos system you know I think they they have a different role have that a Marketplace responsibility like each Marketplace has

(1:50:36) its own judges for dispute resolutions and dispute resolution could be entirely on the marketplace or it could be entirely on the marketplace for the first iteration and then if we wanton we could move into the protocol level but we’d have to like discuss what are the advantages of having it on the protocol level and who would like that and stuff like that what what is a dispute at the protocol level what is a dispute if the buyer has no direct connection at a protocol level what is even a dispute at the protocol level I think the product

(1:51:09) it’s the catalog that could be a brand thing yeah it’s a catalog [Music] is yeah but that happens that happens at the marketplace level so dispute resolution of that would still happen at the marketplace level and then the the protocol would just accept the decision and modify but if I put something on Hamza or I put something the first place that somebody’s going to come and have an issue with it is on Hamza and I I I would say that holistically all of that should happen on Hamza or Amazon or lzada and the result of that should then

(1:51:42) feed into the protocol I don’t see in my mind any dispute dispute resolution at the protocol level well unless a vendor unless vendor is unhappy with that decision that the protocol agrees to accept from a Marketplace well I think the issue is few consideration okay go go ahead Mike well I’ll just say really quickly I just say like drugs are legal in some countries and illegal in others so if if ham is in the US and bans drugs does that mean nobody in the world can buy drugs for example just I don’t think

(1:52:13) it’s going to be a global thing marketplaces can fil are supposed to you know they can ban stuff but I don’t think they would ban on the whole protocol so but again that would be at the marketplace but that would be at the marketplace level in the sense of so for example in the US I can I I can’t sell sunscreen I can sell sunscreen in the US right I can sell sunscreen on amazon.

(1:52:35) com um I can post it on amazon.co.uk and everybody can everybody in Europe can technically buy but I can’t do that on on amazon.com I’m sure also amazon.de and all of those things have their own different what you can and can’t post on or what you can and can’t sell on there I I yeah I’m struggling with having understanding why any dispute resolution at all Beyond execution of um a result from a Marketplace by the protocol would result in a dispute so in my mind it’s a vendor saying why the hell did you agree to

(1:53:05) change that um when Amazon was completely wrong in their [ __ ] and then raising a dispute and then a final decision being made but I don’t see a buyer vendor or even a brand vendor situation manifesting at the protocol level it just it sounds a little bit messy to me but maybe I don’t get I no I mean I I tend to I tend to agree and like the thing I was thinking about earlier was um like yeah judges should absolutely exist at the the marketplace level because someone at the protocol level doesn’t understand the specific

(1:53:38) rules of a marketplace right so like each Marketplace is sort of its own constitution in terms of like what it’ll allow and what it doesn’t allow and so like a judge should be read in on a specific marketplace’s terms um before and and because all these like uh transactions are happening at the marketplace level judges should specifically be there I do think that like there it is possible to design like you know maybe we have this idea of like sort of the Supreme Court right that sits at the protocol level that can like

(1:54:09) handle appeals right uh appeals ahead of you know ahead of the marketplace level I mean I I don’t know like I think maybe that’s like engineering a little little bit too far but I could conceive of a world where there’s like protocol level uh justice um which exists you know agnostic of the specific rules of an individual Marketplace if that makes sense well well how about how about this um if suppose every every uh transaction every buy or seller transaction originates a token emission right and

(1:54:44) that would also mean an emission of certain amount of token for the marketplace and then suppose that there is a dispute with that transaction and the judge uh appointed by the marketplace uh steps into to uh solve that that that dispute um after the the the dispute is settled and there’s a rating by the buyer and the seller of the dispute of the marketplace judge dispute um that that I mean that that it could all be resolved at the marketplace level I I mean I agree with Nina I don’t see any need for any protocol level uh

(1:55:28) dispute resolution for transactions that occur at the marketplace I mean there there’s two on the other hand you could have some some higher level uh like if if if a you know if a a buyer or a seller is really unhappy with a dispute resolution they could escalate it up to a protocol level type of thing but that would be a different dispute process entirely I mean what what about disputing the whole Marketplace a bad Marketplace and that’s what I mean it’s like oh go ahead if it’s if it’s a bad Marketplace

(1:56:05) Mike then um you know individual actors like buyers and sellers could have the op the the option to escalate a certain dispute up to the protocol level if the marketplace just not if they feel they were were wronged or they were treated unfairly they could you know escalate that to the to the protocol level so I don’t know how Nina feels about that what is Nina’s thought on that okay go ahead I do think that like there needs to be some justice mechanism for adjudicating disputes between marketplaces um because again as I said

(1:56:41) earlier like if there’s if the only mechanism for like punishing a Marketplace is like sort of social slashing of the governors I mean maybe then it’s just like it’s literally the governors of the the protocol level that that act as like the Supreme Court and generally because like because I don’t think it makes sense to have protocol level governors in general uh because anybody who has a dispute who like appeals to this dispute resolution process is and and gets a result that they don’t like is always going to

(1:57:13) escalate or like attempt to escalate to a like quote unquote Supreme Court if we have one right whereas like and so I don’t I don’t I don’t really see the utility of it um other than like to to resolve disputes between marketplaces say like one Marketplace sorry but there could be some programmatic uh parameters in there like uh the the individual reputations of the buyer and the seller and the marketplace it could be taken into I see so like you lose a double yeah suppose I’m I’m a really

(1:57:53) problematic buyer right and I never release escrow on times and you know all these all these uh sellers are complaining about me like this guy never pays on time and such um there could be a programmatic uh rule that determines uh if I am able to escalate disputes to the to the protocol level yeah I mean I think I I like this idea because like oh this this is actually really interesting of like the infinite appeal right but like the infinite quadratic appeal where like infinite appeal in the tracks in its tracks yeah exactly to prevent you

(1:58:34) to double your Stakes every time you do an appeal and like you have to be really high conviction and then it’s like a question of like okay like a judge is maybe like there’s a pool of judges and they’re like sort of randomly selected to adjudicate disputes and and like you know okay so first judge rules in favor of one person appeal they they they have high conviction they double their stake you know whether that’s reputation or actually the token um and then second judge rules back in favor now it’s back

(1:59:06) to one to one um and the other side can appeal at the initial price or like the initial stake okay and then as the the judgments start lining up you know two three you know 2: one 3 to one it gets increasingly expensive to engage in an appeal holy [ __ ] that’s actually like a a really killer way to to to adjudicate disputes programmatically it’s just like you it’s random judges but the stakes increase holy [ __ ] that’s that’s actually really really [ __ ] cool cool okay so you guys sound like you’re

(1:59:43) getting very high on that so was that was that basically are we talking disputes between a buyer and vendor that’s that that’s going through this process I think we’re talking any dispute so like okay so for buyer vendor for me I just feel like as a buyer all I really want when I go onto a platform where I’ve had a dodgy experience is giving my money back I I just send an email this product is dodgy it came looking left when it should have looked this just give me back my money right um and I think that’s the Simplicity that

(2:00:11) most buyers want particularly with you know however many day guarantees so I think a buyer is less and a buyer is not explicitly um as opposed to a vendor who’s kind of come through on your platform a buyer is not explicitly engaged in any of that process they’ve gone on to Amazon or Lazada Laz said if your product is dodging in two days you have an issue send it back that’s literally the terms and conditions I don’t think you can have another set of terms and conditions that override which is what we would be doing if we allowed

(2:00:39) installation that would override a Marketplace uh a TNC this is my first my first read of that right so because yeah but I think all this URS if if there’s you know there’s no settlement on the on the terms and conditions like you say you know like uh that would happen if the if the if the certain Marketplace had rules for um refunding the money after two days of and that does not happen that that’s when the dispute kicks in so the dispute is then with the marketplace not with the again this is these are peer-to-peer

(2:01:17) transactions and so you just be like when you have money locked in escro your disputes with the person with the the counterparty right so like that’s sort of the change in Paradigm is like you’re not really doing business with the marketplaces marketplaces are offering you the interface to do business directly with whoever the vendor is right so this is this is enabling a peer-to-peer transaction and then we’re implementing sort of a justice system to to gauge sub in a sub to engage in a subjective process of Justice right as

(2:01:45) to to who which party was wrong right and who gets the money that’s like locked in escrow right um what does that look like from a buyer perspective so let’s say I go on to so not H let’s just pick let’s say there’s another Marketplace that is connected directly to the protocol and I get on there I have the option obviously to as a buyer I have the option to uh pay with my credit card which I normally would have um but I also have the option to I suppose engage directly with the vendor through the offering of the protocol

(2:02:16) like what is what is my buyer experience to know that I have do I have two options or do I come on there and automatically I’m going with the with the escrow option or do I have both options I think MVP so no no the very first iteration of the product like of uh Hamza it’ll it’ll I I don’t think we’re going to do credit card payments and even if we did do credit card payment the credit card payment would be um like a layer on top where we would initial you know initialize like a credit card payment and then do a swap

(2:02:45) for crypto which we would then lock in esro yeah we so like and again that’s that’s sort of more down the road but no it’s it’s it’s a Crypton native Marketplace like for Hamza for Hamza you will allow the escalation to the protocol but for any other Marketplace you will not no no no no no no no again so like so what we were um talking about was and I were talking about right there is like okay so you as a buyer go on and you buy a product and it comes and it’s [ __ ] shitty and broken and you know

(2:03:17) you you provide evidence of that um and then and and so like again you best case scenario is like everything works fine and you just release the escrow and the vendor gets paid but in the case where like something’s wrong you then have to engage in a dispute resolution and so like with Amazon you would go to them and you would send like you know evidence of this and Ian I don’t know I’m I’m not sure what that that process looks like um but I I maybe you could fill me in a little bit more as to what

(2:03:44) that process looks like but like there’s some adjudication mechanism where you provide evidence to someone um who works at Amazon and then they issue you a refund right because ultimately in Amazon is like the central Clearing House which allows like instant settlement um so like your payment goes through and then you don’t worry about it after that um and so if there’s a problem with the vendor they penalize the vendor or whatever they do on their back end again I’m not sure but when we’re just you know thinking about like

(2:04:11) okay so there’s this decentralized vendor and there’s this you know Anonymous buyer right and they you know buy this product it comes to them it’s they engage in our beat resolution process and the idea is that like we have this sort of uh pool of judges and one of them is randomly selected and they look at the evidence and they render a judgment in favor of one or the other um each you know participant has something at stake there right like uh you have your money that you want back and the vendor has like the money that

(2:04:43) they want because they’ve like shipped this shitty product right um so at that point the the vendor like they they you know rule in a favor of you and so the judgment is to like give you back the money the vendor could then like um appeal but they would have to provide like double the state so like if the product was $100 they would then have to provide like $200 in order to engage in another appeal so then a new random judge would be selected and you know they would decide like okay no product ma they they render a judgment in favor

(2:05:21) of you and so then if they wanted to appeal again they would have to provide what say like $400 so it would just like keep getting exponentially higher until it didn’t make you know like if they had been ruled against a number of times they would not only lose like whatever they had put at stake but they would lose all of their reputation and functionally be kicked off the platform right um and you know because their reputation would be so low nobody would ever like engage with them ever again right and so maybe they could go and

(2:05:51) start a fresh profile and start the process over again but they would just keep losing you know $200 to $400 every time they send a shitty product um and every time they like attempted to engage in this heal product so this is a way of like doing this sort of subjective judgment thing um and you know you you assign random judges I don’t know where they exist maybe this random pool of Judges exists at the the marketplace level maybe it exists at the protocol level but I I really did this idea um of and yeah like I get it’s not as seamless

(2:06:24) an experience as what you get with Amazon um but like you know that’s the that’s the beauty of centralization right like um you know similarly with crypto right like crypto is unforgiving in in in certain ways right but a lot of people choose to use it because of the freedom it provides them from you know the Central Banking Ponzi scheme um and so so yeah you know like how do we Design Systems that are durable and and Unstoppable and and have well-designed incentive mechanisms that provide some sense of of Justice uh I I

(2:07:00) think that’s a a pretty pretty [ __ ] cool solution yeah I like it too yeah Jose’s got so much experience with this you know with the dealing with it at first so that’s great well I think we’re at past the two hour mark right both so maybe we give people a break I mean this is fascinating yeah no I’m yeah I’m just sketching out this this idea of the judge pool um or like of the what what do we call it Jose quadratic um well it it doesn’t have to be qu quadratic but it can be exponentially increasing like by a

(2:07:46) factor of 1.5 or something I mean okay I’m just going to sketch this out but other than that yeah so let’s set a time to to continue to engage continue to um to talk about tokenomics um you know if anybody wants to go through I mean you have access to the figma and start defining some of these like actions motivations of buyers at either the call or Marketplace level um I would say maybe the thing that makes the most sense is to start like leaving uh sticky notes um so one we can like track who’s who’s attempting to like

(2:08:31) make changes um and uh and also just like you know so that we don’t mess up any of the like uh the the base level stuff um but yeah th if you want to take a look at this throw sticky notes wherever you’d like um uh if it’s ideas or um you know input um I really appreciate everyone uh being here by the way and I thought this was like an incredible discussion um I think we made a fair amount of progress I mean we’re not quite there yet but like um I think we got a really good idea of like what

(2:09:05) the system uh can and will look like um so but but other than that yeah I’m going to keep on working on this for a little bit but I’m going to exit out of the voice chat um but yeah any any last parting thoughts questions thank you br I mean I think just looking forward to the next tokenomics meeting yeah this is fun um yeah I guess if anybody has suggestions about the time that this is happening if this time is good or not I guess we should think about the frequency the way you know any any other input we want this to be open Community

(2:09:41) uh oriented I think it’s it’s great we did this in uh in public anybody want I also sent some more invites they couldn’t make it cuz various reasons but I think it’s great so um thank you all and uh give us feedback however you feel comfortable awesome thanks guys yeah thank you CIA Chia thank you that was a very interesting meeting looking forward to the next one