In this second town hall, we have specialized knowledge brought to the table, particularly concerning the intricacies of tokenonomics within the LoadPipe framework. Throughout our dialogue, we explore the nuances between LoadPipe and Hamza, delving into their respective developmental timelines, governance structures, and economic models. Our conversation traverses topics such as transaction fees, utilization of marketplace treasuries, vendor actions, and governance mechanisms, all with the aim of fostering transparency and clarity in our project’s trajectory. This exchange serves as an avenue for collaboration, brainstorming, and establishing foundational principles to guide the operation of LoadPipe and its affiliated entities. Watch the recording of the second town hall below:

Transcript:

(00:03) I’ll break things off I’m going to go back to the the no camera very soon but you guys can see I’m smiling right here my name is James CAC I’m a 3X founder my specialization is tokenomics thus my involvement in this conversation here I’ve known Bo for quite a long time since I think like a year and a half ago and I met Mike rather recently and so yeah I was talking about or rather exploring with Mike about like what you guys are doing with load pipe as well as like some of the potential toonomic

(00:33) Solutions and so I volunteered to help and kind of see how we can create something very very cool hi we got some more people on camera there you go Mike you got the the glamour lights as well looking like a k right now Hotel the best lighting sorry yeah so yeah I’m here and I’ll I suppose introduce the conversation after Bo does a sort of introduction Mike for you and the cont context of the conversation Bo and I had met previous to this we discussed quite a few things I think we’re mostly on the same page and so

(01:07) personally speaking my goal here is to to have some more like organization and specifically talk more tokenomics after everyone he everyone that’s involved answer some of the outstanding questions from last call and sort of dive in from there so yeah hi everyone I’m going to go off camera as well and nice to meet you all right cool thanks James yeah so James and I had a call just sort of catching up on what we had talked about last last time and talking a little bit about the format of the meeting and what

(01:39) we’re going to cover and yeah I’m not like sharing screen because I’m in the figma and so yeah if you guys want to open that up I can put the the the link into the general chat one more time but it should also be tied into the to the event if you if you want to look at just like the event posting but here I’ll put it in Jenner I will put it in chatting govern maybe in the maybe the governance one yeah yeah there we go okay great so yeah you can go over to the chat and governance Channel and and go over to

(02:10) the figma from there I see Luciano’s already in there James is in there and John yeah we’re adding people so like to go through a little bit and I’m GNA I’m just going to like Spotlight me for a bit which like sort of pulls everyone into into my view as I like move things around or at least people can often to my view but there’s like a couple like I saw Nina you made a lot of comments around around into a bunch of different places and I did my best to to like sort of answer them where I could

(02:42) and yeah so we discussed a lot last time about some of the various like mechanisms that’ll exist at the different layers and how the system will work which was really like really good and really really nice at like understanding sort of how the system will exist at a high level and a lot of what we ended up writing out and and flowing through was was those like governance processes and where different roles exist and James and I this morning got into or like this afternoon got into a much more like sort of lower level

(03:16) discussion about like what does token emission actually look like and what are and and this is sort of what I want to like Focus this call on I thought it was a really good discussion last time but but like ideally like this time let’s let’s let’s actually take a look at sort of these different actors and and start describing the actions that they can take within the system and and start so then like the IDE my idea is that we can look at like the actions of a governor right and start making decisions about

(03:50) like what are the bad things that we don’t want them to do what are the good things that we do want them to do and what are the neutral things they can do that we really don’t that we don’t we’re neither incentivizing or disincentivizing I don’t I know that every category will have all these different actions but if we can start defining them then we can just like copy and paste them up here and start putting together like a different token emissions sort of schematic right understand like what where are the token

(04:21) outflows going where are tokens being bought and burned what are the different buy and sell components of the token and then from there over the next Pro probably will be a little while like a lot of this right now I think is we’re going to be thinking about at a higher level to to understand the building of the system and even to put in some of our like marketing materials and maybe like our white paper and to help shape some of the discussions that we’ll have with investors but as far as like doing

(04:53) the simulations and implementing it I think that that’s something that comes proba definitely post March probably post may but but having an understanding of it now allows us to build with with that idea in mind and again a lot of this is just sort of for communication understanding the system we be building but but just in terms of understanding like the the development timeline like right now we’re focused on building a a website right and then once we have a functioning website and we can do escrow

(05:26) then we can start the work of like implementing some some silly Dow mechanisms and thinking about like how often tokens emit so so this is a bit of a more highle discussion and again so let’s let’s just dive in unless anybody has any questions comments concerns feel free to voice them yeah I do and certainly I think this is stuff that certainly needs to happen in the context of like toonomic dis discussion like in terms of keeping things clean do we want to do that first or do we want want to do that after like in

(06:01) terms of like what I had posted inside of the chatting governance Dow chat in Discord there are like a number of ways we can pursue this but like do do we do we want this conversation to be strictly to economics or like more holistic overall I guess it’s my question no I actually I actually really like that idea so let’s let’s start there and here I’m just gonna let’s let’s keep it in figma so I’m going to take a screenshot and then insert it into into figma I can figure out how to do

(06:32) that yeah there we go and I I to clarify I think this is a good place to start because you guys are also catching me up as well and I’d like to be as familiar with previous conversations organization anything I could absorb as a nutrients so to speak before we actually dive into the tokenomics okay let me let me throw that somehow into hold hold on I’m just having to like minimize a bunch of Windows right now okay okay all right let’s throw this in here all right so so let’s put this over here to the right of supply

(07:20) and demand or I’m going to put this under Federal Reserve and so I’d say like when we’re talking about this if you’re not like on the mic you can just like use a sticky note in the bottom of the screen so you can just like put a sticky note and like put your thoughts if you’d like but yeah so like let’s start with desired Revenue model for the for the system in general so so this is a good question for I assume me Mike and and John right now I think there there’s two sort of Revenue generating

(07:57) components the first is just Marketplace fees so some some percentage of fees and that is being taken on top of every transaction and then I think the second is the possibility of having some sort of carry some sort of interest bearing asset I I think that that might be limited by the way that we’re implementing payments and even like especially with that conversation with Martin that was one thing John I came away with thinking like how would we ever do carry in a system where we’re doing like the counterfactually deployed

(08:35) smart contracts as a payment mechanism but like what are the other revenue streams are there any again it’s we have to also separate homsa proba from load pipe I know that was feedback from Nina and others even myself last time so we’re talking about load pipe specifically right to to be clear yeah yeah so I was actually going to chime in and this is not a point I made this is HRM and I’m sorry I don’t know your full name but Nina it’s yeah I think maybe starting there because it it seems like a big deal I

(09:12) don’t know I I I just stepped in but yeah what is that distinction outside of the conversation you and I had Mike well if I could say the market even I heard both say Marketplace fees I was thinking of it myself like I don’t know how much the protocol would take of that globally versus the marketplace say Hamza would take and there’s different thoughts about how much Market but I feel like the protocol shouldn’t take too much of the marketplace fees personally on a global level but the other I’ll just list out

(09:41) the other ideas of course if we look at Amazon and others at least on the marketplace level is PPC or advertising others over the months have told me you could also have paid placements to put the products on the top maybe it’s either other ways could be for just maybe promotions of the products in the marketplace not just advertisements but campaigns yeah Mike if you’re GNA have one sentence that defined both hanza hanza and load pipe what would it be like how is Hamza different what are they doing differently and how did they work

(10:14) together it’s pretty clear to me I mean that’s why we wanted to have two different names instead of like say load pipe market and load pipe protocol yep I mean for yeah framing this conversation right helps us spell it out so we can structure the arguments from there right well I think the challenge I mean I don’t know if the protocol should should make Marketplace fees globally or not I think that’s a question but the difference is one is the end user would see the end user might never look know

(10:43) about load pipe or see load pipe is more like the marketplace interacting we were also talking about that last week it’s like yeah go ahead B please well I was going to say like hold on I think there’s like coming back to that like Federal Reserve model or the Federal Reserve discussion sorry I was just checking my door to see if someone was there like when you think about it like the Federal Reserve sets like an a interest rate it sets like the the intraday like interest rate for commercial Banks which is like the rate

(11:14) at which they borrow money but the the Federal Reserve rate is always lower than what commercial banks are loaning out at right because they add their own interest on top of the interest that they’re going to have to pay to the fed and so I would think of it like that where like the protocol the protocol fee is has like some nominal fee 0.

(11:36) 25% 1% something something quite low which it’s collecting on every transaction and then the and again like as as our like sort of definition of what the protocol does shifts the more we have this conversation with Martin it’s looking a little bit more like we’re going to be focused on the social profile and the reputational aspects of it so like yeah controlling so so that inherits some of the like protocols or like some of the what whatam call it the like Primitives that he’s using for this like protocol or the product relay

(12:10) database and then there is like a a small fee that’s charged at the protocol level and then there is yeah the marketplaces can choose to to tack a fee on top of that is is like the idea I think yeah so to summarize and this is a beautiful thing because I’ve heard some things from you and Mike but I am d far the outside naive perspective right and so I perceive load pipe as the protocol or the actual like technology so to speak and then Hamza as a manifestation like the first use case of load pipe is

(12:45) that correct yes okay and so we had to build actually lot of people feel like the marketplace is harder than a protocol and we feel that might notest in a market they said your last cycle was just building and it will come we make a protocol people will build daps right but they said if you can represent if you can actually demonstrate you can make a Marketplace and adap on top of the protocol rather than just simply building a protocol yep so it’s a proof proof of execution right more so than proof of concept it’s like a PC but

(13:18) actually done well right and so in my mind the bigger context which is like uh maybe one year or two years down the line is the fact that load pipe is where you guys are actually going to be making money provided you’re approaching this from the infrastructural provider point of view and just using Hamza as like an example of the product that said that’s not guaranteed right you guys could also pursue Hamza as the main product and that’s just using load pipe and maybe you have some other organizations

(13:52) or concepts fit in after the fact and so that’s like a a very important distinction I think you guys should make as a business right like are you trying to make money from Hamza Hamza or are you trying to make money from load pipe right I think both said it once and I like that been using it is is unis swap did Unis swap is a Dap and as a protocol at the same time and it didn’t open up the protocol to others until later and I think there’s others like blue sky like that now and blue sky is another example

(14:21) I believe I’ve researched they haven’t yet opened it up to others I mean I don’t know if we would even allow I mean we don’t have it people to build on but that’s not a good question if somebody wants to make a Marketplace even now would we entertain that I would but some wouldn’t maybe unisoft wouldn’t I don’t know if they allowed people to build on it until later so well we we can get in the weeds in that regard But ultimately like is Hamza the end goal the end product the context of this conversation and then

(14:50) load pipe is just technological separation between that or are you pursuing as a bigger thing it’s been about this Project’s been about eight months in in in in in in discussion and minor build building over the and there’s been people that aren’t even involved anymore that showed much more interest in Hamza than the protocol and and I don’t I think some people on just call know that those people and hopefully they still get involved but they they were actually much more interested and involved only in Hamza or

(15:19) it felt like they only wanted to contribute towards Hamza yeah that’s that’s not your fault the the protocol is arguably much more influential and like maybe a Better Business business model long term but the fact is is people understand what they can see and interact with when the same way with traditional software development you can explain how the database works and how it’s so great but the business people will not care until like they see the actual website in the UI yeah so yeah so like also traditional

(15:49) investors we have people I’m not sure if they’re on the call today but they’ve they felt like it’s much easier for them to help fund raise on the marketplace level it’s much more clear transaction business model and a lot of people even say to me Mike you’re don’t stop being so altruistic the marketplace is where you got to focus to make the money not the protocol at the beginning I think at the beginning the marketplace is where you make the money and so I think to answer your question James in in my mind

(16:12) from the little bit I understood from the last call is the revenue the revenue model will change so the used test or the the case will be Hamza in my mind at first and Hamza will be where you will be pulling in revenue and then once you’ve been able to demonstrate then you can actually go and start pitching to either brand new marketplaces or existing marketplaces CU I think when you first start attempting to get any existing Marketplace onto load protocols will be n impossible because you will be taking more than they will be getting

(16:40) from you so I don’t think there’s any benefits to to pushing the protocol at the beginning if it’s a brand new Marketplace to be honest again I don’t think there’s much of a us for why they should come and build on protocol unless of course they are also in a long-term Journey so in my mind you make the money on Hamza but the end game is really the protocol but once you’ve proven it and you actually get Sellers and profiles through the protocol then you can actually go to a lzada or shoy or

(17:07) whatever and then start to to brag a little bit this is my understanding from from the last call of how it would work yeah no that’s that’s actually very much what I wanted to hear and that does actually in inform like our toonomic decisions and so I think a large amount of what we’ll be discussing in these toonomic calls is specifically Hamza specifically everything that bow has is probably more like particular to that and then load pipe itself is a very agnostic technology that can exist Beyond any

(17:38) sort of like specific governance model a specific economic model and that’s probably more like a simple Feebas sort of thing so I don’t know if John wants to share what he’s been doing with Hamza and the da so the DA for H’s a sort of a temporary thing because we don’t have a load pipe yet or maybe it’s a maybe maybe it’s also in some form it could be permanent but for right now we don’t have a load pipe we just need some way to collect and divide out the fees that we’re taking from

(18:10) Hamza could it be possible that in the future Hamza doesn’t take fees because we’re because we’re getting fees through load pipe I don’t know there Mis question I guess that’s a that’s that’s a a very good point and so right so you have the the tech if you’re doing load pipe you’re not doing a sort of policy enforcement of governance or token on to revenue right it’s it’s infrastructure at that point and so any sort of behavior you want is on the to toonomic level or the token level everything that

(18:47) we have inside of this chart is probably more unique to Hamza I think maybe in the context of this conversation we should focus on Hamza in that regard and you can always like move some of the behavior out into the toonomic behavior of like load pipe and how that operates but they they are very separate because one is business oriented and one is infrastructure oriented and very very very different I don’t know if Andress wants to clarify he’s but we’re we have two different entities we’re structuring

(19:18) one is Hamza Labs limited which is the operating company which is Hamza and the other is load pipe foundation and the foundation is not going to be operating but it’s where we would do any kind of token sale or other kind of token activity or the other is more the operating so I don’t know I don’t know Andress do you have an opinion on what we’ve been hearing so far about the focus of the call today I mean I don’t know if H I don’t think will have a token like in the same regard as load

(19:48) pipe probably not in gu sorry okay sorry I guess that’s to be decided Mike but theoretically I mean there could be even an entity created for the launch token launch itself this is commonly done as far as I know I do think we should focus on Hamza as a business to begin with and as James suggested then perhaps consider taking some of whatever has work from hza into load pipe and then figure out what is the purpose of load pipe in the long term I think you also have an opportunity here right because the the

(20:28) shortterm growth factor right the the whole reason you guys are executing Hamza right now is so that you have a proof of execution for investors like showing people are actually using this getting people excited and hyped because it’s much more tangible than an intangible sort of infrastructural tooling and so you can shake your own hand in that this instance treat H Hamza and load pipe like their separate entities and use it as like an announcement of partnership on on Twitter say Hamza is using load pipe and

(21:01) load pipe says load pipe has Hamza as the first adopter if that if that sort of makes sense because load pipe ultimately wants more marketplaces than Hamza and Hamza is ultimately the proof of execution for load pipe even though you guys are currently the same team as that as load pipe expands that distinction will become actually distinct so I well I I will stop you there and say like so that makes sense if we’re developing load pipe in parallel with Hamza but the development timeline looks more like we’re putting out

(21:39) Hamza and it is just a Marketplace that’s sort of centrally controlled where we are processing transactions in crypto and then post having a Hamza is when we really start building out and and like like like taking away parts of the centralized infrastructure and building building them into a decentralized infrastructure which is load PPE does that make sense so so like token incentives like initially like when when we think about it it’s like that way we can be like testing things we can have a test version of the site

(22:13) that’s up and we can start like attributing points right that we’ll eventually distribute as an airdrop and we can start testing out the the things like just just making sure that escro works and decrementing products in the relay database and and and testing out all those parts and then we have like a test deployment of the Dow so like fully functioning because because because one of the things to remember is that like it’s a lot easier and a lot more forgiving to deploy a website a web2 website where we are the central

(22:45) Arbiters of like what’s what is allowed what is not allowed and allows us to test out a lot of these functions and even start like generating some some some volume before we make a transition to to what is a a fully Dow controlled like protocol right because like once once those smart contracts are deployed once all those like profile smoke contract smart contracts are out it’s going to really it’s just a lot less forgiving right and so so yeah it would make sense if we were going like protocol first then Hamza but but in

(23:17) reality we’re doing Hamza first then protocol so so as far as like the the tweet that you guys are having is it Hamza by load pipe or load pipe by Hamza pleas if you see I put two links in the governance chat but we actually was a Hu huge amount of work we try we wanted to we haven’t really been public about this project up until last few weeks but we we we made a blog. ham.

(23:42) biz for the Hamza and then we made a map. load pipe.com the road mapap of load pipe Foundation we do want it to be a owned and yeah we’re kind of talking to each other and it’s a bit overwhelming but we said in app .load pipe.com step1 introducing our first Marketplace as appr proof of I think it’s you can read it yourself but y we tried to separate the two and it was really actually me writing it and somebody maybe helping edit a bit but we tried to say we are excited to say ham is the first Marketplace on the low pip protocol and

(24:17) they started project raft the meaning behind the raft go check it out over here and then on on hza we talk more just oper tactically like with the video Luciano helped me which is on a call this a story and saying please use our test net make some test transactions we’re excited to be the first here I think James the short the short answer to your question is that is Hamza by load pipe and the reason behind it it’s because load pipe is the one providing the initial funding and the and the overall idea is

(24:57) that event eventually load pipe can actually be the entity raising funds and then providing funds to different hsas or dabs right so that that is the overall vision is that the foundation is the one raising the funds and then funding different abbs of which Hamza is the first one okay and so I think even from a regulatory perspective it has to be that way because if you have a Marketplace that’s then going to what you’re then going to pitch to marketplaces it that in itself appears to be less appealing than saying okay we

(25:35) built this bottom line in for sector that has also made a Marketplace but is also designed for multiple other marketplaces so I think even from a just a pure selling or even R perspective and transparency that’s that I think that that would be the only way it is we could do it I don’t even think the load pipe by Hamza would even be an option yeah okay no no I’m I’m glad to hear that and the reason was specifically for this discussion because we need to make a distinction between governance for

(26:02) load pipe and economics for load pipe and governance and economics for Hamza right these are two different entities even though they’re beginning together and right now things are going to be muddied a little bit but you have one that is very product oriented like based off of the last last call you had was user oriented it’s talking about vendors and this and this and that and that and load pipe should be much more agnostic it’s probably a very simple fee model whenever the token itself is used right

(26:33) or whenever the tooling that load pipe has is used and that’s just that’s just numbers that’s just percentages that’s very simple and so like while we should iron that out I think maybe these toonomic discussion should be focused on Hamza the internal governance of Hamza the Hamza da are are if this is proof of execution it’s like setting a standard for any other application that’s going going to be using load pipe in the future and exploring what that can look like does that make sense yes yes it

(27:10) does yes again we we want to I want to W I mean everybody listen to recording in future we we don’t want to discourage quote unquote competiting marketplaces we’re just doing maybe we even open source this is on a call one of our developers actually James thanks for your introduction to him he’s he’s heading up a lot of the front end of that but the idea is we want to really welcome marketplaces we want to be like a protocol of marketplaces in a way well I think that’s others to do it sorry didn’t mean and I sometimes

(27:42) worry that we raise money these investors don’t want that like we even had this conflict earlier with people that didn’t really want to give the data to the protocol and they want to keep it on a marketplace right so there’s just kind of but I personally really want to make it on as much on a protocol publicly trans as apparently as possible I’m not doing this to create another Amazon on on a blockchain that’s closed cuz you could create it cuz you could create homs that’s kind of closed right

(28:05) we wanted to be as open as possible personally I hope everybody’s agreeing with that but that’s my my position yeah maybe you can chime in here but like if you if you have the tech load pipe is just the tech right it’s just how something is accomplished I’m sure you guys everyone on this call can think of maybe even just a different kind of marketplace that could apply load pipe you might have a steam Marketplace for games maybe that fits within Hamza maybe that does not you could have NSFW sort of marketplace

(28:40) maybe that fits on top of load pipe maybe that does not but like like if if those alternate use cases exist outside of Hamza then load pipe should be may be more important but if Hamza is the total umbrella that’s fitting everything within it then focus on Hamza yeah put some in the chat but idea is crowdfunding could be built on this like a Kickstarter could be built on load pipe but it wouldn’t really fit in Hamza a B2B Marketplace like Ali maybe Alibaba or AliExpress could be built on this even some people are actually quite a

(29:18) few people I’ve talked to actually want to do like an upwork on it there are a lot of people are actually tired of upwork actually I’m here in India and a lot a lot of these contractors are getting really tired of upwork I don’t know if that could really fit into that to be honest but well well that’s perfect as long as the technology can be used by these different sort of use cases then it’s good and then with load pipe right your your tokenomics are very very simple it’s you use your utility token for load pipe in

(29:48) order to access the features and functionality of load pipe and that’s that and then these toonomic conversations aren’t really exploring that they’re just talking about Hamza this like current execution this web 3 Amazon that’s owned by the community right and sort of determining that does that make sense to everyone like is everyone on board with that sort of approach I I don’t really know what that means so when you say like the the protocol token is used to access the protocol I I don’t know what do you

(30:20) mean yeah so so what I mean is if you’re treating Hamza let’s say like a L1 almost and then we’re treating Hamza like a Dap or load pipe is like a L2 rather and we’re treating Hamza like adap on an L2 right you can have a token that’s used for these different functionalities and the reason you want to separate the governance from of Hamza from the governance of load pipe is because if you want load pipe to be adopted by various different applications they’re going to have different governance needs and they’re

(30:54) going to want to have their own like internal tokenomics reward systems as well and so if you overdesign and we design everything for load pipe then you’re kind of hindering user adoption in the future from these different applications because you’re enforcing your own governance and tokenomics model on them if that makes sense like load pipe is the utility and that’s that one you can still have your Dow for that but that’s separate from Hamza very very separate from this execution yeah no I mean like if you

(31:27) look at the the the the diagram that we have written in the token flows sort of section of the figma you can see that there’s like a load pipe Dow right and the load pipe Dow has different responsibilities like to set the staking rates and set the minimums and distribute its treasury to to different places right like so it has its own sort of decision-making mechanisms and then Hamza is a dow that’s instantiated according to a minimum staking requirement set by the the protocol d that again has sort of its own functions

(32:01) right and and so I guess what I’m asking is like when when you’re saying like Okay so are you saying that like Hamza should have its own token and its own governance Dow which is completely unrelated to any sort of protocol token yes yes I am I’m I’m saying are they are they separate because if you want separate yeah so if if you want them to be separate like that distinction should be made clear um should have its own stuff its own governance its own token and load pipe should have its own governance its own token and Hamza can

(32:34) use the load pipe token but it should have its own governance at the very least because like load pipe is meant to be agnostic and used by other that’s why I referenced John earlier but we are making a Hamza token but it’s more Hamza token the Hamza token is just the like loot token of molok The Da that we’re using like we’ve always said that marketplaces like Hamza being an example they might have their own Dow they might not they might have their own governance token they might not but that’s their business

(33:07) that’s the marketplace’s business so for now we’re making we are keeping them separate I think we I don’t think there was ever any question about that sorry I I just jumped in so if I’m confused or if I make errors in my understanding yeah no that’s okay so am there’s never really been any question that Hamza would be governed by the load pipe token or anything like that that my think so yeah I mean I just want also James I mean we’re not really planning to raise I mean might the idea

(33:45) is we we do more like a public token with load pipe not with Hamza unless you think we should do more of a public launch Hamza but Hamza is more like a a proof of concept that we said and it will make some some money but so would be like token the entire reason you guys were executing Hamza in the first place is specifically because the investors the people you were talking to were more interested in the execution of the concept rather than the infrastructure right and so you do have an opportunity to sort of run with Hamza on top of

(34:22) whatever we determined for like load pipe and use that as well secondary earnings vehicle for your team it and it would be separate but it would be the same people initially and you could sort of spin that off and push it off eventually and that could sort of help Kickstart you guys because it like you said right you could raise funds for Hamza and you can always adjust the fees for load pipe after the fact and you could have more aggressive fees with load pipe if you’re your own first customer and sort of use that to build

(34:53) the treasury of load pipe just a thought any feedback Bo or John I feel like or anybody I mean yeah I think that seems like what we had in mind if I understand correctly so Hamza is G be we’re using Hamza I guess the only concern is I mean there’s no deceiving but we weren’t really planning to kind of make such a public announcement about Hamza as a token it’s more like a smaller company let’s see so we were talking we we were at Mike’s house we were talking about how are we going to take a fee I think it started

(35:35) with the idea of taking a fee from from the store of Hamza to feed back into the business and yeah we talked suggested using moak as a DA we just started exploring that from there so if you if you treat pza like a traditional business which I I don’t think you guys want to but like maybe convenient for conceptualizing things then yeah you can collect funds as like a web 3 equivalent to these e-commerce marketplaces and sort of act like that and you’re sort of kicking the can here but in that discussion that you guys

(36:15) were having like should we have should we require people sticking some sort of token in order to have the governance token what you guys could do and maybe B you were already thinking this is like okay you we require load pipe to be St or the load pipe token to be Stak in order to receive the Hamza governance token is is that correct Bo so I I like again it’s like I do think in in my conception of a lot of this I think that we’re the terms are like not super clear when I think of a Ham’s a governance token like I and we

(36:56) we had this conversation a little bit earlier James like I think of the protocol load pipe emitting a token and that token being emitted so like what we talked about last week was like that there is like so so there’s a staking contract at the protocol level and that’s for load pipe governance right so in order to stake and become a governor of load pipe like in order to govern load pipe you have to stake that token probably some like vesting period like in the same mechanism is like curve where you have vested curve which allows

(37:31) you to have governance power for a certain period of time we could talk about Decay or whatever like that’s that’s a and that becomes the WRA token which is the governance token for load pipe similarly when you instantiate a Marketplace like the marketplace is its own Dow and and the marketplace is what is receiving the emissions from the load pipe protocol so when so when load pipe is emitting so the so the token contract you mean like Hamza would be an instance of one of these Hamza would be an instant yeah would be an instance of a I

(38:05) was vendor okay right right yeah ham Hamza is an instance of a dow and similarly like that Dow contract creates not only the Dow contract but also a staking contract which you can then stake and become a Hamza Governor right so like the Hamza governance token to me is is the load pipe token but it is wrapped such that is a Hamza governance token right so it’s distinct like right like you don’t have this like you have this this one token in in my mind and that’s how we like do the different like sort of emissions for and control like

(38:42) the the differential emissions and change the emission schedule for different roles as the governor want to incentivize people joining those pools of people who are engaged in that activity right so like that’s that’s sort of how I in think about it is that in that like Hamza yeah Hamza is a distinct entity from load pipe and the Hamza da is a distinct Dow from load pipe they both use the same token but it’s wrapped in a different contract which gives it different functionality and different privileges I see so it’s

(39:13) Hamza load yeah yeah you could call yeah you could call it Hamza load sure sure sure okay yeah so but again that’s just my idea I I I want to clarify as well again for you guys like I’m stepping into this like pretty recently and so my misunderstanding is actually it should be informative for you guys if I’m not clear on certain topics yeah no I think it’s helpful yeah I think even even for us to have your questions yeah I think I’m learning a lot from his questions it’s clearing up a lot for me

(39:45) too and so so so my my current summary as I understand it is load pipe is a protocol which enables marketplaces and govern governance and Regulation and a whole bunch of things that people need in order to run like online stores and so the load pipe token can be used in order to instantiate one of these marketplaces and when these marketplaces are instantiated we create a wrapper token around the load pipe token in the case of Hamza it’s Hamza load just working title for now and that’s used for internal governance within the

(40:25) marketplace is that correct yeah yeah that’s so that’s my conception of it right and so similarly like as as vendors stake to to within Hamza for instance they stake to become a vendor through Hamza or like a judge joins the judge pool in Hamza right so like it has own ownership and voting based off of their wrapped low token that they’re using with well I wouldn’t even again I wouldn’t even say voting I would say like again like you have maybe the load pipe protocol maybe maybe this governance and this is part of why like

(41:02) I kind of want to drill into these things is because like I have this like sort of loose idea of how it should work but we need to like get into the specifics of like what actions do we want to incentivize and disincentivize to really start running models about like what what what levels like just to start getting an idea of what numbers should be but yeah like a Hamza will have its own Dow and then its own sort of set of smart contracts that people can interact with to to to to like so for instance I give the example of like

(41:32) a judge so someone who wants to become a judge and become a judge in the Hamza pool right the the emissions that are coming from load pipe it’s just setting like a set of staking emissions for vendors it’s setting a set of staking emissions for judges that like maybe like they’re able to augment that that percentage based on what globally it thinks that like it the system needs then those emissions flow into Hamza and into the various staking like staked participants of Hamza if that makes sense I I don’t know if that’s the most

(42:07) optimal construction but that that that does that said I think we and I’m very glad I read that Discord message we need to make the distinction between the two right you guys have load pipe you guys have Hamza right now and Hamza is a specific in instantiation of how load pipe can be used and so we’re going to have very nitty-gritty governance compliance and monetary discussions relating to Hamza overall and yet the bigger picture the long-term picture is how do you monetize load pipe right like in an agnostic way that is

(42:49) adoptable by other marketplaces Mike you said upwork like how do you design something for that and so I I just want to make it very clear these are very different things the tokenomics are going to be the governance are going to be entirely different and so my my question is is would you guys like to focus on conversations on Hamza and like the execution of that or would you like to focus on load pipe and the sort of agnostic application independent sort of solution that’s a hard question but the idea of Hamas like I think we’ve John and I have

(43:32) been say somewhat saying in this call is we’re trying to make it also a template that people could copy paste to spit up their execution yep not just execution of the technology but execution of the the governance the Dow like they don’t have to use our framework but we’re trying to kind of make this a framework or even I think as Alex was inspiring me to make like an ebook convert your web 2 to web 3 e-commerce brand or e-commerce Marketplace n has also said what if current Web Two marketplaces maybe not

(44:01) Amazon but even Amazon wants to come into this ecosystem what would they need to do to be able to act in this environments so with that at least I want to bring that up like that could be a template for other marketplaces to potentially utilize that we what we develop in Hamza so I guess we could start with it that way and then try to integrate to the load but but Bo’s always said we should do them in parallel because which I do somewhat agree with we can’t not think of load pip on H right we would have to can I ask a

(44:30) really basic basic question and if it sounds stupid I apologize from my limited understanding of what it is we’ve talked about it seems to me and and to the point that Bo was asking before in terms of the action and all those things we have fewer actors on on the protocol than we do at the marketplace level so that means we have more actions that we want to incentivize or disincentivize or nothing at all at the marketplace level so there’s in in my mind it makees sense to focus on on Hamza first and and nut those out I’m

(45:00) struggling to see that there’s a vast number of things it is that we would want to incentivize or disincentivize at the protocol level but have I oversimplified it somebody tell me no yeah I I think you’re you’re entirely accurate the the protocol like tokenomics and governance are going to be exponentially simpler than like a in a utilization of it just like kza and so like that said I think we might want to focus on load pipe initially just initially and it’s going to be a Chicken and the Egg sort of

(45:35) thing and just like iron out how you want to monetize load pipe assuming like massive user adoption or massive Marketplace adoption just so that we can fit that within the understanding of Hamza and like how that that fits within the the models that we have right pza okay every time a transaction occurs right on on for a vendor every time a vendor makes a sale the load pipe protocol takes 05% right that’s like a a very useful number a very useful assumption for us to be able to make and it’s much simpler

(46:10) it’s much quicker and we can knock that out and then adjust as needed after the fact I think going in the Hamza direction is like coming from the bottom up and starting with load pipe is coming from the top down I think we’re already doing okay in the Hamza Direction like we’re already moving ahead with not really any obstacles so for that reason I think it would be helpful to focus on load pipe and come from the top down so we we’re coming from both directions okay so I mean I I I I do agree I I think I honestly think it

(46:47) doesn’t matter I think we just need to pick one and start really drilling down into what the actors are and then what actions they’re taking and one of the things that I to to that end this Nina made a comment while we’re away about like the different actions of the marketplace so so one thing to think about is that like when we’re talking about emissions there there becomes this like Oracle problem and like there there is a distinction between like the sort of things that we can track on so one of

(47:15) the things that we need to be thinking about in terms of tokenomics and and in limiting the scope of this discussion is that like the the things that we can track on chain are the things that we can direct incentives and disincentives for so like the the like actions perceived to be a lack of transparency right this is this is like sort of a subjective measure and so maybe we could say that like the load pipe Dow could manually step in and review a a Marketplace and take an action but that’s like sort of an extraordinary

(47:47) action that is like may maybe that that’s something that requires like a judicial process so like when we’re talking about just sort of Base tokenomics we’re not talking about like the the the judicial processes it’s more so like like if you think about it like this and let’s even put it in the context like if we have a random pool of Judges the thing we want is to is to if they’re assigned a case we can see like a judge is selected they’re given a case they render a judgment those are all

(48:21) like signatures right we can those are all like it’s a signature and a vote right a signature that they received the case of their wallet and then a vote that they then put on chain and so those are those are very easily trackable it has nothing to do with like the subjective question of like whether or not they what their judgment was or anything like that it’s like okay we asked them to take this action and they did it right similarly like the some of the things that we can automatically track on chain are just like did did a

(48:50) transaction clear escrow like order was created it clears escrow everybody’s happy that’s that’s the flow that we want across the board right and so so sorry continue I I was just going to say like I agree with what you’re saying but I think we are getting ahead of ourselves in the sense that we’re we’re focusing on like a very specific instance of problems without understanding the larger framework like I still don’t have an answer to the question like how does Hamza individually want to make money right

(49:28) which is very much the tokenomics question and how does load pipe want to make money and from there when we determine like how these different organizations are making money then we can determine the the monetary or like inter monetary policy for these different individuals so like just fees like are the fees being collected on the token level are the the fees being collected onchain offchain and this might be a failing of myself but like I I I don’t actually understand let’s say just Hamza for the the context of this

(50:03) conversation maybe I could take a step at it but I think they’re both earning Marketplace fees although I vote to have very minimal on the protocol level because we don’t want to as a protocol interfere too much on the transactions so I would vote as small of a transaction fee as possible but they both make money off the transaction I think the more the more would go to a Marketplace for many reasons they’re doing more more work in that in the in that in my opinion at least and protocol wants to just

(50:34) encourage as much transactions as possible there’s a those are the two main actions I jump in for a second to clarify Hamza is very simple it’s making percentage of the transactions on the blockchain okay so Bas I think that’s what we decided we can discuss that again load pipe is less clear so so Hamza just for now and I’m I’m sorry Bo I I don’t mean to be rude I just don’t know the answers to these things so no we need if it’s not clear for you it’s definitely not clear for most

(51:13) then so we collect the sales and those are collected in like usdc they’re not collected in like cryptocurrency or like is there like any sort of am process yeah for Hamza for Hamza we will accept a few currencies tokens like stable tokens and Native and we will collect the fees in whatever the transactions are paid in and after we collect the fees are we normalizing them somehow are we converting them to like one currency or are we keeping them not decided yet fully I think I mean there’s also been some

(51:54) discussions that rais another point is actually was Alexi yellow suggested for a good monetization was some of these say it straight up [ __ ] tokens that don’t have much utility could give more utility to their token by having people be able to buy stuff off say the protocol or Hamza yep always talking talking to him about that yeah uh you you and I Mike actually talked about that and there’s a guy who rolled through yellow a manual CU actually who has someone who can sort of do that as well regardless I think he

(52:30) has said at the travel company that yellow incubated in their early days also were getting monetization from having other tokens added to their system for those investors or users to use those tokens to buy travel and so like in sort of a flowchart methodology right you guys make a profit and you make a profit from protocol fees and you collect a profit and you can either keep the token separate you can invest this you can do sort of amm and sort of like normalize it which is probably what you’re going to do you’re

(53:09) going to convert it to usdc or die or something like that right and so we have the first two steps make profit convert The Profit into some sort of normalized asset and when we know the normalized asset then we can start talking about Rewards right we can either pay people from the normalized asset or like and I were talking about before we can pay people in like some sort of native currency some sort of Hamza token as well and I think like we should we should start that conversation before we start talking about the specific reward

(53:43) distributions for like various different actors in an ecosystem start big get small I guess I wasn’t expecting to incentivize people with the HS of token and personally maybe I was I could I could be wrong I’m often wrong yeah so the hza token is kind of just internal for right now like where it’s more like internal bookkeeping we can call it that then what’s what’s the main incentive of them using the Hamza storefront for buyers or sellers for sellers you want to answer that John yeah so for the the incentive for

(54:27) sellers is eventually like the incentives will be the incent incentives of load yeah but get customers I mean we’re there’s Crypton native buyers that want to from our P experiences that want to buy with cryptocurrency physical products and they want to buy there’s not many places there and and the other reason is is we’re building this governance and DOW and transparency for trust so it’s instead of just going on some random Shopify website and sending cryptocurrency in a non-reversible transaction to somebody in the other

(55:02) side of the world there’s a governance and there’s a escrow and there’s a whole trust system built in versus just doing it on a WordPress site or Shopify site yeah to put it simply if you’re talking about like Hamza postload pipe the incentive for sellers is to be able to sell their goods but also to have all their product information and profile information transparent on the blockchain and in both cases the incentive for buyers as far as we could see is to buy stuff in crypto there’s also lots of rewards you

(55:36) can give them right I mean there’s there’s like nft drops air drops there’s gifts there’s future discounts exclusivity yeah when Lo pipe when load pipe comes about Hamza inherits all of the benefits of load pipe but in the meantime it’s just to the incentive for sellers I guess is just to be able to sell stuff in crypto to a different Market access to a different Market in a different manner right even if it’s not most of the money they make if it’s 10% more than what they’re currently making

(56:11) it’s still that access right yeah it’s more CH more customer access it’s hopefully tap into benefit is they get to keep more of their profits as well compared yeah fees and is the Hamza storefront going to be open source or closed Source because you said we’re offering the whole point just to offer them a framework well I guess it’s not been fully confirmed but I’m voting for open source I mean I don’t know I mean I think we want to we want to basically make Frameworks for people to build

(56:44) marketplaces yeah I don’t see any reason to not make it open source I never really thought about it but if we’re going to be providing an example for other marketplaces I guess it might as well be or should be yeah I mean I think again it’s like like if you look at so I I was gonna say I just drew out this like a quick like okay this is this is like maybe the way that we’ll split up the each transaction right so you have a very small protocol fee you have a higher like sort of marketplace fee I

(57:15) mean and again marketplaces can compete with each other around like the level of fees and everything like that and even with like a 9% fee on transactions the vendor is still getting like 90% the the level at Amazon right now is 50% now to be fair like it depends like if that assumes that the cost of shipping is lower than 40% right like from an economic standpoint like because like Amazon does fulfillment that’s their justification for taking 50% if if like if shipment costs less than 40% of the margin that they’re in that they’re

(57:51) getting as opposed to Amazon then it financially makes sense for them at these levels right and so I think that that’s again that’s sort of a different question but yeah you can see so like really what can I ask a question just on this on this diagram just very quickly so here are you assuming that the marketplace is putting pretty much in in its entirety all of its sellers and buyers onto protocol so are you are we charging or are you charging this 1% on pretty much every transaction that goes through the marketplace or is there a

(58:20) subset of the transactions in the marketplace and that subset would be determined by dot dot so if a a tiny not not like a brand new Marketplace that wants to build on the protocol but an existing Marketplace decides oh I want to I want to take advantage of some of other the vendors you already have on the protocol is it then that you’re only taking transactions for those particular sellers sorry fees for those particular new sellers how how you what does that look like if it’s an existing Marketplace that comes on board are you

(58:47) getting that 1% off of all their transaction so protocol would right because again every Marketplace will use the protocol and so this is is a global again this is a global governance discussion here right so load pipe Dow gets to make this decision about what percentage rate it’s charging its fees for every Marketplace that uses the protocol right initially and and again this comes down to like a strategy thing right like initially that Proto that protocol fee will likely be very low and and again this is this is sort of like

(59:20) why we’re having a tokenomics discussion because tokenomics and is all about incentives right and so initially the incentive we want to create is that people spin up marketplaces and initially marketplaces I mean like you see Amazon’s and and and centralize sellers do this all the time where and and most tech businesses start out with zero fees and then they slowly turn on right the fee switch as people get more used to it now hopefully the idea is that like and again like this is a protocol decision the protocol could

(59:50) decide to put it at 50% right that would likely be a really dumb decision de ision right and then maybe someone would be incentivized to create a new protocol but like hopefully Again part of the reason why this makes sense a little bit more than like an Amazon is that there’s electability right people people can CH theoretically choose to delegate their governance power there’s a little bit more open access to governance power it’s a little bit harder to keep control the more that we emit tokens for and and

(1:00:20) and if we’re emitting tokens to people who are engaged in the marketplaces which is kind of why like I I want to be emitting tokens at all like at all at all spaces it means that the people that are most engaged and most using the protocol and using it honestly if our incentives are aligned correctly are the people who will end up getting the most power and making these top level decisions right so so yes protocol will be getting whatever fee it decides on every cleared escrow and the marketplace treasury will be getting every will be

(1:00:54) getting a fee on every cleared escrow that passes through its smart contracts so and what is the the the treasure used for in this instance like is it for every vendor that exists in that Marketplace or like is that determined by their Dow the market what is the you mean what is the marketplace treasury used for yeah yeah yeah or how is it used how are funds determined is that like d decided by that that that Marketplace whether it’s a private company or Dow I mean it could be a normal Amazon right and they could do

(1:01:27) whatever they want with their money yeah yeah because because the thing is is like that’s what the marketplace is responsible for is providing a front end right like so they have to pay hosting fees and they have to build a good ux like they sorry go ahead so I’m I’m just gonna go back to my question because I’m having trouble understanding this if you’re open sourcing the front end right what stops the company from just just plugging in their own payment provider and just using it as their own solution wouldn’t

(1:02:01) it be more beneficial to provide that as a SAS well we’re trying to be like a block blockchain based I mean a SAS sure but why would you hand out the storefront I mean we’re hoping that they plug into our protocol could do it without our protocol but we want them to use our protocol protocol makes money on volume and also it it’s like protocol or like Marketplace comes with its own risk and also as I was saying earlier like some marketplaces may want to like only serve certain areas like again if we’re if

(1:02:40) each marketpl is sort of responsible for its own fulfillment some marketplaces will probably just want to say like well we’re only going to do intra Europe right some marketplaces may get ballsy and decide that they want to do like in they want to spin up inside the United States and so like operating a Marketplace comes with its own first of all hosting costs but also legal liability and so like I I mean I get what you’re saying like that does that that is a mon that that’s like stream for us to would be to just like safy our

(1:03:13) front end I mean I don’t know I I I I’m generally like just philosophically more inclined to open source some things but also I think if we’re building out the protocol the protocol is like the protocol collects p on everything and so more volume we want more volume no matter what yeah yeah like a lot of people we talk to normal you’re I appreciate your question I’m not we want to entertain it but the idea is we’re trying to do a different model than web 2 we’re trying to do web 3 model which is more open

(1:03:44) source some people call altruistic but I think that is what’s web 3 is supposed to be is sure they don’t have to use our protocol but it would be very easy Plug and Play to just plug into low pipe protocol and we have some rough white papers but I can’t wait for James to support but I kind of drafted one I called africaart in the in the draft but I can’t wait to come back to India I don’t know if I really want to come back but if I come back to India and maybe do a hackathon and help people make up their own

(1:04:10) marketplaces and do some kind of prizes and things like that and then make a very hyper local one just on a specific Niche and a specific Market Geographic Market I just personally find that like it seems like an on top Market somewhat like what versal does offering a SAS solution would make the process much easier for the clients that’s yeah that’s that’s a thought for another day though well I I I think it’s a valid consideration if you approach this from the perspective that like load pipe and what it enables

(1:04:45) is the bigger picture and mind you I I have not considered this I’d have to think about this but like is a sassa better way to get more quote unquote like tvl more user interaction using the load pipe protocol for the the other products the other things that you guys want to launch as well I think it’s a complete inverse to be honest I don’t want to do anything in a traditional way I mean the way I can see it is we might pay them to use our Marketplace I think we could have negative interest I think we can we can

(1:05:15) actually have instead of them paying 1% we pay them 1% have like a negative interest I think we want to get as much volume on here as POS maybe we can have some kind full service Suite where we could have some kind of Enterprise addition that they could pay us for like like even SAS has that they have they have three levels right they have the open source I use open source they have the SAS and then they have the Enterprise right we have the open source I guess we could do a sass I mean or we can have somebody else in the ecosystem

(1:05:43) do a SAS and then we have the third which is the Enterprise which is like the white glove but I I I want to be more like a we want to be the water we want to be the Bruce Lee Water right want be like a Blain okay so I’m going to have to head out in about 15 minutes something I would like to do based off of this conversation is draft up Maybe not figma maybe like a canva thing I’m going to drop it in Discord and I want you guys to beat it up this will be like my understanding my takeaway based off of this conversation and sort of how I see

(1:06:16) Hamza and load pipe working together oh totally stealing your graphic that you have right here does that sound good to you guys I I think like having a sort of like sitting picture right and talking around that that one instance rather than this very very large document that we have here would maybe make sense for the tokenomics stuff um looking at both for opinion but I feel okay with that we have there’s actually lots more documents than the figma yeah yeah figma is great like this is actually terrific I I remember when

(1:06:53) when we were getting Burgers we’re talking about like the the active players like how you want them to behave and like B executed that but like in the in the context of like H Hamza and load pipe as SE separate entities that’s sort of like shifting my perspective in terms of like toonomic design and so I’m more Curious to explore the relationship between them two between the two and then like sort of diving into one and the other sorry so complicated but I mean John and I guess we looking at so long but we feel like Hamza simp I want

(1:07:24) to say simply but purely a transaction business model of like like a more significant percentage of the transaction than the protocol and I even vote for I said negative or zero I mean I don’t think protocol takes much or anything at the beginning but yeah ham is pretty clear it’s like a 5% or something transaction fee and that’s it that’s how I see it so so Bo the conversation that we had earlier today mhm so Hamza takes 5% transaction Fe or 1% as you currently have on screen M and says 1% 9% 9% 9% 9% of the hums 1% to

(1:08:06) load pipe 9% I see okay and that that’s currently it that’s like the the tokenomics you’re taking that fee and that’s like how the money is being made right just the money being okay and so what we’re exploring for like tokenomics is how does that 1% get distri Ed amongst actors in load pipe overall and how does that 9% get distributed amongst like the team the organization as well as the participating players within Hamza in this instance is that correct yeah I mean functionally right like what I mean and again these are

(1:08:44) variable right X perent y% I could have written and then 100% minus XY but like yeah so I mean the percentage is yeah the percent is whatever it is right and then and then there’s a bunch of actors in the ecosystem and again why have a token to create incentive mechanisms right to incentivize behavior and to reward people who are acting honestly within an ecosystem with ultimately more power right that power is like distributed in sort of an inert form which is just the token and then the token takes on power when it’s staked in

(1:09:26) a role right and so how do we again when I’m thinking about tokenomics I’m thinking about like okay we we take in so so so like I said on our call earlier and this is a more General principle I think for everyone to to maybe meditate on while we’re talking about tokenomics it’s like a good token is designed in a way such that you have an application that creates value it it captures that value and again the capturing of that value takes place here in our like protocol fee and then acru that value to

(1:09:57) the Token so such that like the token becomes more valuable as the the as it is governed in a way that is that is true and that’s why like I I I keep on coming back to this idea of actions and thinking about specifically what are the actions that we want to incentivize because that’s where we can emit tokens that’s where we can distribute tokens and and thinking about again going back to what I said earlier like what do the onchain events that we can take a look at and say like this is an action that

(1:10:27) we can verify is one that we want to incentivize and thus we like continue to emit tokens to people who are engaging in that action right so such that over time the people who are benefiting the most from the system are the people that are using it and getting the most value from it right perfect so like as far as the images go I think what you have on screen is at least the the most impactful for me what I’m going to do in the next 3 days is come up with a very pretty picture of what I have in my mind because it’s easy to get lost in the

(1:11:00) woods with like some of these conversations I’m going to put it in Discord and I’d love to hear what you guys think and I’ll leave some space for like some of the governance stuff but like I think like a proper flowchart starting from like income starting from that sort of buyer that we have there and then having sort of tree map as far as like how that revenue is distributed one both back to load pipe and that’s going to be very simple and then two that sort of marketplace treasury how that’s distributed amongst actors and I

(1:11:33) think that would be very useful crystal clear picture pretty picture okay that’s that’s my action item I I I think it’ll help quite a bit Yeah okay sounds good J thank you guys seriously this was so informative I listened to the last call I I I get it more now being involved I agre I don’t want to say it’s easy but I mean I think I think we have a little bit easier I mean it’s very clear in e-commerce there’s a transaction of a buy and a sell right where a lot of these other blockchains or other

(1:12:12) projects just a little bit more vague I feel like it’s pretty clear people are there a physical product or maybe a service we talk about like upw work but PE there’s one person that wants to trade money for a value of service or product and we’re in the middle and we there’s a transaction fee for that I mean yeah if yeah go ahead no I I think yeah no it’s it’s very simple so forgetting load pipe the protocol right you have a marketplace where you collect a fee that is collected from whenever someone buys

(1:12:47) or sell something and you take a portion of that fee and you allocate that in order to reward actors with within that specific marketplace right exactly and then comp and it’s different it’s different than the current model which goes investors invest in Amazon and then investors go to IPO and then the money goes and then they hire workers and the workers get a salary and it goes where this is like transparent open model and it’s all those all those Marketplace functions are onchain and rewarded by people

(1:13:17) participating on chain for that same thing and a transparent model yep awesome self self-contained vendor ecosystems supported by load pipe any ideas hopefully like Bo said most marketplaces squeeze everybody to death right and they just give it all to the investors and the owners which don’t actually get back to the community which is us and we’re the community and we don’t get it back we just get kicked out and but banned and we don’t get even a thank you that that’s the thing they they can still do it with load pipe

(1:13:51) right that Marketplace could exist but that’s not the problem you’re solving you’re making it possible for people to determine their own governance you’re creating enough room and space for these different organizations these different marketplaces to pursue that outside of Amazon because they’re still under load pipe they’re still under your urasil right your world tree yep I was just gonna thought like have you considered this the beginning Hamza will make that percentage of the fees right later on

(1:14:28) maybe the whole organization will be making more off of load pipe that would allow Hamza to lower its fees and be more competitive than any of other marketplaces would give them actually Advantage give Hamza an advantage over other marketplaces in the load pipe system is that a little side benefit there no absolutely one thing I was going to say was was like again it’s like I do think that like when we go back to these these these actor sort of the the actors in the different marketplaces right like at the protocol level the the protocol can

(1:15:06) decide which marketplaces like again Bas based on some metrics like number of vendors signed up total number of es amount of escro cleared in The Market Place judgments quickly rendered like growth right to total value locked right in terms of token and then it can emit to marketplaces based on that and so like so that’s the thing it’s like it can it can also it can act as like a Marketplace is an actor in and of itself and whichever actions we want to incentivize maybe we want to give admissions based on some percent some

(1:15:40) idea there and maybe marketplaces are incentivized to really lower their fees because they like the the protocol emissions and they get more of them when they actually just have more people going through and because like this this is just like this is exactly what we want we want a buyer to put money in escrow we want that escrow to clear and we want it to go to to the the protocol we want it to go to the marketplace and we want to go to the vendor th this is like the totality this is the happy path right and so like the more disputes that

(1:16:13) are raised that that’s worse for us the the less people who are signing up that’s worth so so in finding the proper incentive mix to get those those to happen as much as possible is what we want tokenomics to guide okay yeah okay all right guys I I do have to hop off the call thank you very much for having me and this is Crystal Clear I’m very happy to be on this call so Mike B also team I’ll be in touch in the let’s try to keep the toonomic design conversation in the token design team Channel I think if

(1:16:53) that’s the correct name and I’ll I’ll drop some resources before our next meeting and will our next meeting be next Tuesday or do you guys want to shoot for something earlier like this Friday I I don’t know we were just B I just talking about how many calls we’ve been having lately I don’t know maybe maybe next Tuesday it’ll it’ll give me some some time and we can sort of sort that out yeah I’m down for next Tuesday okay all right yeah I’ll start working on that Mike I’m not sure if you’re here

(1:17:26) in ch my B if you are back Tom yeah yeah I’ll be back on Thursday awesome okay thank you guys and have a a very very good day James guys I guess we’ll hang out I mean I I I budgeted two hours I mean I know it’s been a long one already but I I think I can I think some of us can hang out is there any comments from others or questions maybe while we transition here I’m I’m interested in so Nina I’m taking a look at this note that you’re writing uh I’m interested in in are these just like General thoughts on like

(1:18:06) vendor reputation there’s also like a question here yeah it’s just I think if we are thinking about actions and and I think the the clarification you gave was very helpful I think I’m still struggling to think about Marketplace actions that are now as visible as what you described that could then incentivize or disincentivize so I’m just starting with the easy one which is vendors so I’m just making a list in my mind of sort of actions that you would want to push in either direction and yeah there are

(1:18:32) questions in there probably more for myself than for anybody else to answer because it’s just a brain dump at the moment so yeah feel free to ignore pretty much most of it if you want no I mean I think that these are like I think there’s yeah like General time like this is like okay so spikes and refunds and refunds right yeah like someone who’s Contin like and also Al one thing to think about is like there is tokenomics and then there’s also like search optimization right so like there is that

(1:19:05) traditional like the there are two like levers that we have in terms of vendors right we have the like reward system which is emissions and then we also have reputation right so like there’s a natural inclination to increase your reputation because that influences how much how how how high you are on search results and that’s going to be like a Marketplace to Marketplace decision but but vendors will want to protect their reputation theoretically and then and then there’s also token emissions so so

(1:19:38) yeah that that is something else just just to keep in mind because like like for instance FTC breaches I I am not sure how and and maybe you’re maybe maybe like you can like the these are good things to think about and and even but I’m I but but I was just thinking about that when going through this list one thing I like when you say we can’t reward volume it would be unfair why not because you have high ticket items where the person is only going to sell like TVs jewelry things like that they’re only going to sell a few but

(1:20:12) they’re high tickets and then you have somebody who’s selling more of the impulse buy fidget Spinners of course those they’re going to sell like a thousand of those so potentially it’s unfair to reward volume because it’s not represented depending on what the vendor is saying I guess that’s the question is what do you mean by volume do you mean when when you say volume do you mean volume in terms of number of items sold or do you mean volume in terms of dollar value I think if you’re going to do it

(1:20:36) you can well you you could argue the same thing either way right if you feel that if I take value overall for the month and I compare it vendor to vendor then it makes sense then yeah that would be that would be more fair in my mind than taking pure just black and white number of transactions so yeah that’s potentially one way yeah but even with that then I suppose we would have to then look into the whole escro process rends refunds to make sure that we’re only doing that once everything is clear in second Stone but yeah that makes

(1:21:04) sense yeah because I think I think I think oh sorry go ahead Mike I mean I also like the idea of governance activity and governance as a indicator because I know I don’t know Bo probably knows even better than me but I think the real activity of governance in in in blockchain is very low people don’t right so I think maybe that could be another indicator does everyone have a voting R does every vendor have a voting right and it a matter of what your vote counts for okay no see and that that’s what I

(1:21:35) was going to say right there is that like and this is what I mean by like staking into different kinds of tokens right like so and and having different kinds of actions right so theoretically it’s like okay we have like load pipe token but like a vendor would stake in and and because they would need like that stake in order to like be a vendor and then they would get emitted a token but like their vendor token doesn’t give them governance rights right a a governor in in Hamza would have to stake into the Hamza Governor contract

(1:22:05) similarly like to the protocol actives right like so so like this is a different token the the Hamza Governor token is different than the Hamza vendor token and and the actions that we can like take a look at so like for a governor right like we want them to vote right yeah we want them to vote or delegate I would say like voting or delegation I think are both like fine I don’t know how I mean like we can Implement a delegation contract but like it’s a little bit more complex than just a pure voting delegation voting contract and we don’t

(1:22:44) want them to not vote right but that’s like how we would decide whether or not that’s how we would decide within the governor is whether or not an action is good or bad but it would be completely separate I think from like the way that we would determine how how vendor emissions are happening right or like what actions were rewarding in a bonus to vendors yeah I mean there’s yeah I mean ranking is a very tricky one the ranking algorithm and then also we can’t probably make that totally transparent

(1:23:15) and public right even though we even though I do say a lot about governance and and transparency but we gotta be care the ranking do you mean the ranking of vendors yeah the product rank like the SEO the market I think I think you can be transparent about the criteria but I don’t think I think not so much the entire I call it black box but you can be you can be transparent about the criteria and the waiting of the criteria right yeah so either the things it is that push you up so it’s not people can no you don’t even have to Rice engineer

(1:23:47) just do the right thing and you you’ll go up the list and if you feel you’re not then you raise a dispute but also it’s just not a thing that we’re doing on chain right like it’s it’s it’s infeasible to when when we write a ranking Al like the the ranking algorithm that we ultimately use is going to be one that’s pulling from cash data right like it’s it’s not going to be like we’re not going to control like onchain data will be used in determining the product rank but product rank is

(1:24:17) happening at the the application like the web 2 applic like it’s like happening on a on a web server not on the blockchain and so so yeah it’s like we can we can exactly like you said Nina like we can tell people the the criteria but at the end of the day it’s like that that’s something that has to be controlled by the front end we just can’t do it on chain and and it like it raises an interesting point too because like back to this point that I said earlier right like this this idea of like actions

(1:24:44) perceived to be a lack of transparency being a negative action for a Marketplace like I don’t know that we can stop individual marketplaces from and and I don’t know that we would even want to right to stop individual marketplaces elevating specific products right and part of that is like we we can’t bring that on chain we also can’t necessarily track that revenue and that’s Revenue that’s not going to be going into into the H into the load pipe protocol I think with Market places I’m

(1:25:23) just overall struggling to identify actions that you can one look to your point objectively see without too much dodginess and then and then asking if you would then want to either in like you say incentivize or disincentivize specifically for Market places I’m just struggling so I don’t know if you have one already can have a think around like we want them to clear transactions right like we we want them to to clear as much ES grow right like theoretically like that is an indication of something that’s that the marketplace

(1:25:58) is doing correctly right if they if they’re initiating esro contracts and clearing escco contracts and also when we think about it like from that like this is at the protocol level right so what does the protocol want the protocol wants cleared escrow and and so yeah how many how many escro transactions are they creating how fast are they clearing them and how many disputes right now in terms of like distance incentives like what don’t we want marketplaces to be doing yeah like what would result in a

(1:26:28) slashing action from the protocol I think it would have to be it would have because we said Freedom right so we talked about giving the marketplace freedom to do their own thing and run their own governance and we don’t want to we don’t want to mess with that at all so what’s actually left really at the end of the day yeah I think this one might be a little bit harder to come up with and we don’t want to do a reputation thing we don’t want to do something that requires we want everything as automated as

(1:26:57) possible yeah I’m I’m struggling to think about anything that would be at a Marketplace level if we’re letting them set their own rules and everything else the only complaints I can think about that people have about marketplaces is the lack of transparency or the to next Point getting kicked off for no damn reason not getting approved for any damn reason not getting your ads approved those those would be what a seller would call a bad Marketplace rather than anything else or or suppressing my cont

(1:27:23) or things like that but anyway you have time to to ponder but think about this guys sorry if the if the protocol is going to earn a fee from all dabs and those dabs are doing things that we don’t want to incentivize or even worse if they are clearly in clear VI violations of whatever they’re selling guns trafficking women whatever it is I mean we if we are taking a fee that is is very awkward right so there has to be a way where the marketplace stops receiving the fees so that I don’t know what that means from a

(1:28:01) technical point of view because we we need to be able to sort of reject any fees for illegal activities and also to shut them down if that’s what they’re doing or do something about it if we cannot shut them down we talk this last call I mean that is related to what we should know or should know know about what others are doing no I agree I think we should but but again I think that that’s like I think that’s not necessarily automated I think that’s like a dow decision I think the Dow the the protocol Dow should have

(1:28:38) like like in molok it’s called G kick which is a function to kick a member right and theoretically like all of these are like members of the load pipe Dow and so there should be a there should be like a blacklist function for lack of a better term right or or I mean a sanction function which is like tough because like on the one hand we want to do like open like an open protocol but I agree I mean I do think that there are I mean and it’s and it’s tough because like how do you if you give yourself

(1:29:11) power to stop any Marketplace then you give yourself power to stop every Marketplace and and although I agree in principle that we should that we should not traffic in humans and that we probably shouldn’t sell guns like there’s there’s there’s people who will say well you shouldn’t also sell abortion pills or this that or the other thing right and so it’s like it’s it’s this really hard balance I think that that does actually give me a lot of pause and I and I don’t know that I have

(1:29:40) a good answer for it yet I agree with you I think that I think that we should have the ability to stop emissions to a Marketplace and based on a subjective judgment of the protocol down and especially receiving fees otherwise we are liable of whatever they’re doing yeah yeah yeah yeah to say like we’re not collecting fees from these transactions we’re not and maybe that’s it because it doesn’t it doesn’t in theory stop them from operating right exactly it just it just stops them from

(1:30:12) receiving any benefit from us and it stops us from receiving any benefit from them and so and maybe that’s maybe that’s a reputationally reputationally though you’re not you’re not going to want to have anything to do with them because it won’t I mean you can deal with the pr and the bid after but it will basically say that you’re receiving fees from a platform that sells XXX they won’t say that you’re receiving fees from for separate transactions I think if we just play it out and we just say

(1:30:38) okay fine so let’s say tbal comes onto the protocol and there’s a number of vendors who are selling women on their this gets raise the cow’s attention cowbo already has governance in place that says oh we we don’t allow that then addresses it so if if they’re responding appropriately to these actions then that’s like one path if what you’re seeing is like it’s a much smaller Marketplace actually they what they’re selling is not what they’re selling it’s fake pictures they’re actually selling

(1:31:04) this I think where it’s going to be more nuanced is not even going to be like it’s not going to be things as as clear and black and white as human trafficking or kidneys I think it’s going to be dodgy little things like where they’re putting up a picture of some that they’re really selling something else underneath either it’ll be I don’t know potentially drugs or something else I think it’s be a lot more than on and point you have the smaller Marketplace you give you send the warnings across

(1:31:28) because you’re seeing it how many warnings how many this then results in you potentially giving them a time out so you could adopt I was about to suggest you could adopt a China model so China if you do something bad in China they turn off your wecha for a while for 10 days they punish your wecha right so there I think there’s other ways as opposed to completely chucking the chucking them off that you can think about but I do think the instances will be more nuanced than oh you’re selling a kidney no I mean like I I agree I mean I

(1:31:57) think it’ll like this is why I think it like yeah I I think maybe coming back to this idea that we were discussing like last week is like this idea of decentralized justice and what is what is like our Justice protocol look like I it’s it’s why I do think that because like say the protocol Dow makes an accusation of a Marketplace and says like hey we’ve received evidence that like these things that you’re selling are not actually what you’re selling but it’s like something else this is like

(1:32:25) our notice that we will shut down all emissions slash the stake of the Dow because that’s the other thing is like each each Marketplace ha theoretically has like a staked number of tokens that are vested for a period which is which is something that we can use as like a hammer right it’s like something that we can use as leverage and we can say like okay protocol has the ability to to to step in and and initiate a process of Justice where we say this is what we’ve heard this is what we’re accusing you of

(1:32:55) like you’re on pause and under review and then there’s a a Justice process initiated and because because like and and like how we design that Justice process like that’s that’s like another thing that we have to to contemplate again it’s why I see a lot of this as like developing a par like a like a like a legitimate government like we’re we’re having to make a decision about like well what what how do we set out like how do we how do we create the regulations that we want the protocol to

(1:33:26) follow and then we want the individual marketplaces to follow and then how do we Institute a system of justice where like if someone violates those like what are the punishments right and and the only things that we have to work with are are monetary incentives right like we’re not we don’t have police we’re not going to have a a a police force or a military so we we have to all of our like Leverage has to exist in the form of like the stake tokens and the and the ability of people to continue to to

(1:33:57) engage in Commerce according to the rules that that that A system that a that an agnostic system of governance has has set forth so let’s get 10 more minutes everybody C about at two hours just I think that’s fair I know a lot of us been on a lot of calls today but this has been fascinating as always I think we all enjoyed this but also I guess we’re not ready to announce this keyword Martin we you may heard word Martin a couple of times but we are talking to some other developers also working in

(1:34:28) e-commerce blockchain space it’s very exciting that we might collaborate with and I think even with that collaboration our role still seem pretty similar against I think we’re kind of building the Dow and the governance and the filter I mean I think a lot of maybe other builders might not be filtering but we’re trying to make like a like like like Bo says I think that’s the value of what we’re trying to do we’re trying to engage the community create a governance create a doubt create a

(1:34:52) justice system reputation system I think some others maybe are are more primitive but I think that’s what we’re trying to create try to create an ecosystem of trust and and transparency and we’re not trying to let people make do sell or do bad things like other like we’re not trying to make our Silk Road we’re not trying to create some other thing where anybody can do anything that they want we’re trying to kind of create a little bit of a yeah I mean as much as we might be somewhat I

(1:35:18) don’t hesitate to say it but it’s going to be filtered a little bit we’re not going let people sell anything that they want right it’s going to have to fit our our not our like mine or B but the communities which is why we’re trying to find as good people as we can in the ecosystem to to start it off right with the good intention in a transparent way I think that’s one of our differ strategy that that that comment you made in terms of when you then start extending the protocol to other

(1:35:46) marketplaces I think there will be potentially a little bit more handholding with some marketplaces or Marketplace Founders so that you if it is people who have a similar mindset you kind of not you you you save yourself at the job but I think there might be a little bit more involvement from you guys the team when you’re on boarding a brand new Marketplace it’s it’s a lot more personal than if you were just on boarding a random right so the first few you’re going to do will almost be handpicked I know it sounds terrible

(1:36:13) given the whole thing about Community transparency everybody come on board but the first VI will definitely be be handpicked and I think that will help the reputation when you start building and your start pushing so yeah I think that makes sense part of sales strategy I would I think we agree with that I mean it’s also just in startup ecosystem in general whether it’s you have to work closely with your first users and on board them listen to them learn from them but yeah we we after every call I’m more excited
(1:36:43) than ever I think I think we have what we’re trying to solve is not letting people sell things like secretly and illegally we’re trying to solve frustration of the buyers and sellers in these current gated commun communities or gated ecosystems that just ban Us in black box or just delete us or throttle us for no reason or at least a reason we don’t know at least give us a reason like I’m here in India yeah people don’t know you’re banned I think by virtue of that you’re going to attract a certain

(1:37:10) number of people who have been picked off a number of platforms you Al and you have crypto payments you also potentially going to attract people who sell sex toys to markets where sex toys are t right and then they have these dodgy fake ads it is that they do on Facebook it’s going to attract those kind of people because they will feel that there is a supp of masking and so by Design you have to build in not like handcuff but you have to be clear at a at a load pipe level what you will allow and what you won’t allow and then a

(1:37:38) handra is completely different right in terms of oh yeah everybody you can go for books or whatever the hell you want so I think that there will need to be some clarity as to what sort of activity you want to allow for vendors directly who are coming or building their own Marketplace places some craft or or things like that so yeah I I think 100% it will be extremely nuanced and I don’t know what it’s going to come down to in terms of not if it’s illegal it’s very clear right this is not an issue but I

(1:38:03) think it’s all the other stuff but it’ll be interesting once you get there well and I think it’s yeah it’s because it’s like there’s a couple of things that I think like we can all agree on right like we can agree you shouldn’t be able to traffic in organs we can agree that you shouldn’t be able to traffic in people but but like when you start talking about like guns when you start talking about sex toys when you start talking about drugs right there’s there’s a wide array of opinions

(1:38:28) and a wide array of legality right like and and so like yeah like how to arrive at these decisions I mean again it’s like these this is it’s it’s a government right like it’s a it’s a it’s a network state right and and the network state will have to decide for itself what it it allows and I and and I think the the big question and and yeah this discussion keeps on bleeding back and forth and I guess it’s because they they are are so intricately tied to one another is that like on the one hand

(1:39:02) tokenomics is about monetary policy and incentivizing the right kinds of actions but then we have this like other discussion which is like constitutional governance and like and specifically like Federated constitutional governance of like what decisions should sit at the protocol level and what decisions should be handled by individual marketplaces right because like if a marketpl decides like and and that’s sort of like the philosophy I approach it with is I think at some point we’re going to have to

(1:39:27) come up with and not a lot of this can be like verified on chain but like at a certain point load pipe is and the protocol is going to have to have like sort of a Constitution which is just like hey look these are the things that absolutely will we will not engage with right absolutely 100% And and my vote for those things I didn’t even think about like selling kidneys until until you know just just mentioned it but like organs and people and maybe organs are just a subset of people right and then marketplaces I think should be able to

(1:39:58) sort of decide for themselves what else they want to engage in but it’s like it’s kind of tricky because States Nation States some of them really hate drugs really really hate drugs and if we’re facilitating LSD transactions in Singapore I don’t personally care but Singapore will if we’re if we’re facilitating fentanyl sales in the United States I I actually do care about that like but and but and the US government will too and so so like yeah it’s it’s it’s it’s tough to decide

(1:40:31) where where a lot of this Authority should exist and how much of it should exist because again the more power you give yourself the more power you allow it to be to be unequally applied usually you pass this I mean blockchains what blockchains do is they pass it to the ads right to the front ends they pass that to the front ends responsibility right to the our case the marketplace I mean we have maybe this core this totally do not sell we’re not yeah I think none nobody on this call wants to traffic humans or organs I

(1:41:01) think even Silo did death threats you can kill people if you want to kill somebody you could pay a fee to on there something I heard but I think some like those kind of things we wouldn’t we wouldn’t allow but I I think we have to kind of delegate to the marketplaces on some of the more gray ones that but it’s but it’s really it’s it’s really hard because like if what will be the rules for Hamza Sor go ahead go ahead well no no no I’m I’m like I I’ll I’ll come back to

(1:41:33) that but like it’s really hard because if we give ourselves the power to stop at the protocol level to stop human trafficking and to stop organ sales and to stop like Hitman being able to be purchased then we also give ourselves the power to to stop organic foods or or access to birth control or marijuana right like any number of other things that just doesn’t allow us to change can’t we just do it and not allow it to be changed ever again like I mean those are I mean this is like life or death things right but this but what I’m

(1:42:08) saying is like I’m saying like yeah we can say that as a social Norm we can say that like load pipe is instantiated with this Constitution and in fact the Genesis like smart contract deployment has this like data Bob which is the Smart which is the Constitution that says we can’t do these things right but in doing so we give ourselves the power to stop anything else and and if like a government swoops in and puts pressure on like like this is the difference between like Bitcoin and eold right is like eold was the precursor to bitcoin

(1:42:46) and Bitcoin like and and the government swooped in and and stopped all the people who were engaging in the eold system and and just applied pressure but the government can’t stop Bitcoin right it it just can’t like the the if it could have it would have already there’s too it’s too decentralized it’s too robust of a system there’s no per it can’t put pressure on all the necessary people at the right time in order to stop the system from functioning whereas like again and this is like sort of the

(1:43:16) hard thing and why I appreciate sort of what Martin’s doing and maybe that’s just the answer is that there is a protocol that exists outside of load pipe which which is the sort of social layer and maybe the fact that we’re instantiating a social layer means that we have to have this like governance system and and hopefully if like enough people are involved in the governance process and they’re all and they’re they’re separated from enough each other far enough and and they’re not all they

(1:43:44) can’t all be access by like governments and whatnot maybe we create a robust enough social system such that like like pressure can’t be applied to really change it in that way hopefully that’s the idea and but but we’ll see we’ll see what happens now to n’s Point what what will Hamza allow I think Hamza should be quite Limited at the beginning I think Hamza and this is this is my personal opinion I think Hamza should do like electronics and and I I would not like especially in these like very early

(1:44:17) stages maybe we should give it the ability to sort of expand as it grows and more people are involved in the governance process but I think initially it should be very limited in scope in terms of the kinds of items that that that can be posted on there location yeah I think we got I got I have another call too unfortunately but I think we could go on forever but I think we got kind of a good stop can I ask what’s the homework what’s the homework between now and this call because I feel like I don’t have any

(1:44:49) actions so what’s the homework between now in the next quote seems like James is going to work on some kind of diagram the next couple of days what do you have there should be more I think there’s some more stuff that the rest of us can kind of think about do etc etc between now and then because I think what he’s doing is mapping out what we’ve just discussed through which is fine but I think what what are the act and what what are the things you need to go think about and go answer and come back on etc

(1:45:14) etc I I would say like if we could asynchronously fill out those like action like even just like like you were doing and just putting in in like sticky notes of like actions for different actors and some different like thoughts around that idea I I I think more thought needs to be given to to what distributed Justice Means I think more thought needs to be given to the individual like actions we can incentivize and disincentivize for the actors and yeah I I think those are that’s all good work that needs to be

(1:45:43) done I mean Migo and and John are sort of able to to think about this when when we like are in these discussions but the three of us are like just just developing we we’re like mostly writing code when we’re not in meetings and so so those those are things like and I I’ve been like sort of returning to it and thinking about it here and there but those would be really good things to to to be doing okay Grand that’s helpful that’s clear all right thank you thank you everyone thanks everyone bye guys (1:46:19) bye hey