Loadpipe Community Town Hall 11 focused on Tokenomics 9, with discussions ranging from cultural references to plans for upcoming events like ECC in Brussels. Participants explored token flow in dispute resolution and distribution to vendors, judges, and marketplaces…

Figma referenced by Beau

Chat history

Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 5:05 PM
I’m going to chat
Too much background noise, sorry forgot about festival
Michelini — Yesterday at 5:10 PM
https://www.figma.com/file/kVlAmEYLZU6eyBNqOlyiZp/Loadpipe-Tokenomic-Design?type=whiteboard&node-id=0-1&t=Afa3wC5yRYaQP9P3-0
FigJam
Loadpipe Tokenomic Design
Created with FigJam
Image
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:15 PM
What is workflow governance in the LOADPIPE level? Is the dispute justice system a part of it?
Ok, so workflow governance at the loadpipe level seeks to construct all the LOADPIPE infrastructure and suggest improvements at the highest protocol level
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 5:18 PM
It’s very akin to “Operations” in traditional business as I understood it- like internal infrastructure and maintenance
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:18 PM
I was under the impression that the loadpipe protocol would be ready to use at the hamza or marketplaces levels “out of the box”
So, are you implying that each marketplace could implement their own version of the loadpipe protocol, as a fork, so to speak?
0xBeau — Yesterday at 5:20 PM
https://github.com/raid-guild/RIPs
GitHub
GitHub – raid-guild/RIPs: Registry of internal raidguild improvment…
Registry of internal raidguild improvment projects – raid-guild/RIPs
GitHub – raid-guild/RIPs: Registry of internal raidguild improvment…
https://snapshot.org/#/shapeshiftdao.eth/proposal/0x24a56dac2edbf0a74ef5eb9cf5fffcda79aeb88a439f8259f30ec9db9cfd44a7?app=deepdao
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 5:22 PM
Not quite – rather loadpipe is a universal jutice/settlement “meta-guild”. Individual marketplaces would have their own marketplace specific governance tools that focus more on their internal governance.
This convo is more related to Loadpipe’s role as a metagovernance tool, though marketplace specific will need to be discussed later
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:23 PM
Got it, James. So for example, workflow governance at the hamza level would be how to usie all the metrics provided by the protocol to build their own version of a user rating system
Sorry Beau I was taking notes…. You mean vendor staking for normal marketplace transaction operations?
Michelini — Yesterday at 5:31 PM
staking to be a verified seller different from escrow funds
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:31 PM
Yes. Well I believe the staking by verified sellers should be in tokens – that is what drives the demand of the token up, remember?
How do stable coins reduce volatility? they use financial engineering dont they? in this case, you are requiring vendors to stake a token amound equivalent to the value of the items (or a percentage of it), so that tends to anchor the value of the token to the value of the merchandise theyŕe selling, and by that proxy, to the value of USDT
collaterization ratio, yes. it all comes down to that. and collaterization ratio depends on the rate at which the merchandise vendors sell has a problem and the stake must be returned to the buyer (like an insurance company paying the insured)
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 5:45 PM
It requires some divergence of what would be anonymous info
Zk does something like this, where it’s anonymous but it’s got an override for when the regulatory agencies come knocking
Because if you can’t provide that info it becomes antagonistic where (while you didn’t sell the product) you are protecting bad actors
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:49 PM
Ok. So Re Legal liabilities: The less a marketplace interferes with the market (which products get sold) the less liability it has on faulty or harmful products.
So that being true, we would not have to deal with legal liabilities considerations on products for what concerns us: the vendor staking (in tokens on otherwise), the collaterization ratio and the value of the token
So yes, the whole idea of the stake is to insure against undelivered products or buyers wanting to return faulty products (like normal amazon returns)
Alex — Yesterday at 5:53 PM
All these “problems” are opportunities. Outline them and provide a grant. With scale and volume the community will solve it themselves. Focus on one thing and do that exceptionally – justice and transactions. Don’t let loose ends side track us from solving the main problem.
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:53 PM
again, we could leave the decision of how much % or the merchandise value a vendor has to stake, to the vendor. ?
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 5:53 PM
What does it become when kick isn’t sufficient (I.e. someone kills someone you can’t put a price on that and it becomes a government issue). I think ZK could fill that role for non-escrow real world liability
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:56 PM
Ok Andres, but then the vendor would have to factor in this product liability insurance into their product costs, wouldn they?
maybe we (Hamza) can facilitate that
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 5:57 PM
I think we can make the assumption that people will eventually sell the worst thing they can possibly sell
If we can make the communities liable for that then it’s not our problem
Michelini — Yesterday at 5:57 PM
agreed 3rd party
but wondering if it can connect to loadpipe tokenomics or would that be a separate token/ protocol ?
as a “demand” side
john.kosinski — Yesterday at 5:59 PM
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jlaurentum — Yesterday at 5:59 PM
hahah… yeah, that pretty much sums up the feeling
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 6:00 PM
Yes absolutely
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:00 PM
all this digression was brought about by this question: Should vendors be required to stake tokens or “hard currency”?
Michelini — Yesterday at 6:02 PM
which came from are there other demand sides for the tokenomics
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:02 PM
Taking Alex’s comment : we need to limit the scope of the justice system , “or which parts of the value chain we want to take on”
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 6:03 PM
I think again the bigger question is if it becomes a real world legislative issue. We can avoid a lot of responsibility by being decentralized provided, the protocol can provide the means for those orgs to learn and know about the bad actors. We can eschew that but that’s part of what the ZK override is
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:03 PM
how about just limiting it to “product delivery” and users making returns on products?
Spoke like a true programmer, John
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 6:04 PM
Third
*A certain level of protection on behalf of the buyer and staking of the token for limited insurance for smaller transactional (non-big-legal) tokens
*I.e. not insurance for when people die but rather “the laptop didn’t turn on”
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:06 PM
correct Jim. Thatś what I am trying to get at
Michelini — Yesterday at 6:06 PM
a healthy discussion
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:06 PM
“laptop was not delivered, I did not receive it” or “laptop doesn turn on”
Michelini — Yesterday at 6:10 PM
vs laptop exploded
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:10 PM
and killed everyone in my house, lol
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 6:11 PM
Not everyone…. 😎🔫🥷
Agreed
I think that makes sense
Liability will be a convo later but internal flow for “laptop issues” is where we should focus I think
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:15 PM
LEtś define that better in writing, Jim. And then we can work from there. What is product lieability for Hamza and what is the staking ensuring against?
Jetsetter Jim — Yesterday at 6:16 PM
Won’t be insurance necessarily, think we have 3 tiers:
Laptop issues
Laptop insurance
When things can’t be handled in crypto anymore and become a real world court issue
jlaurentum — Yesterday at 6:16 PM
because from that point, we get implications for the rest of the protocol decisions\

Transcript:

(00:03) yeah it’s okay what is that like a carnival and they get people wet in the streets or something yeah yeah basically it’s a it’s the new I think it’s the new year right it’s song is I think so it’s the Tha new year but their tradition it’s also when hey good morning it’s Al basically they made a culture I don’t know because I think it’s the rain is after the dry season so they they they celebrate by spraying water to everybody on the streets for like a week like a few days how are you
(00:40) goo I’m good how about you are you in are you here for sron or or don’t even know where you are yeah yeah no no I’m inm oh cool I’m on the 30-day Visa oh really okay you should meet up with me later tonight after all the meetings great I could not hear you yeah it is a little quiet James sorry we’ll talk later I think I think it’s no it’s the background it’s trying to cancel out the music that’s playing at the C okay but yeah Mike gar and I I think both got our our tickets to to ECC did
(01:23) you get yours as well would it be an email you mean or or or what yeah yeah email yeah sent to michelini at chadstone okay yeah melini okay I I’ll search I’m I’m not I’m like always a day behind on my email but I could search for it I mean it’s not urgent I was just like I was concerned for like a little while because like the payment went through but then we didn’t receive an email for like 24 hours I got the confirmation is said actually it came at 1000 p.m. my local time last night yeah
(01:57) that’s what I’m saying it’s like yeah it didn’t come until like yeah but I guess that would have been like 5:00 p.m. my time so like all day I was like Jesus to we just like $3,000 or whatever it was I thought it was like half the price Max I didn’t know it was that much yeah it was are they serving wagu I think I already asked you this but yeah what’s the no it’s just like it’s in I don’t know like they’re French right they’re doing it in you know I’m sure there will be some
(02:33) adrenochrome consumption or something like that anyway oh dear ad [Music] Chrome that he didn’t hear what you said and we didn’t hear what he said but we’re talking about we we a few of g bo and I will be attending ECC in Brussels in July so we look we just got our tickets okay I I don’t know who else we’re waiting on I think we just go ahead go ahead and get started yeah I think we just go ahead I I am recording for for the blog so okay cool all right so this is the the different models that like John had
(03:18) sketched up this idea you know and and like these constructions I think you know one of the things that I wanted to add to it today are this like one is this question of like what a service provider is and two is like which Vault are we talking about when we’re talking about like leaky vaults versus you know people just like rushing to acquire and and and redistributing the stake and so James and I had a call yesterday where we started sketching a little bit more of this into the figma and so we this is this is the
(03:57) chart that we’re like sort of thinking about right now and adding to and and basically it’s like so to explain this a little bit you know we have the load pipe Dow here and then everything horizontal to the load pipe down are things are like genres of decisions that the load B low pipe Dow can make workflow governance again we we we haven’t like gotten into defining quite yet but this is like sort of in in a handwavy way just like you know sort of like ordinate work streams right so like and so we would
(04:35) Define like a little process in here by which it would assign a coordinate work or at least that’s sort of the way that we’re thinking about it but we started to you know and then this is what load pipe does right like this all of this all these things are to support this which we’re beginning to think that like justice should exist and we we talked a little bit about this I think the last tokenomics meeting but Justice should exist at this protocol level and all Dows should be subject to this like
(05:07) protocol level Justice and we started defining what that might look like and what the work like what the flow is of like a dispute raising as well as like you know asking some questions and starting to Define these things but like we raise a dispute that creates a case which selects in jurors notifies the jurors and waits for their input the judg submit verdicts the verdicts must contain like a ver like a judgment must contain a verdict which the is the user describing their reasoning and then before you submit your verdict you have
(05:41) to vote on other like other people’s verdict right the simple sort of up vote down vote system maybe is the easiest way to think about it and then once the verdict is R rendered we reward correct judges we you know penalize incorrect judges and then you know we can push to the appeals process or just ultimately settle the appeals process is the one that we sort of outlined and maybe I I should move this over but like over here this idea of like quadratic appeals that get increasingly more expensive the more
(06:16) of them you lose is sort of our first thought on like what that justice system should look like but that’s a sketch of and maybe here I’ll actually just reduce this oh no I don’t I’m just going to bring this whole thing maybe I can’t okay there we go bring this whole thing like over here I’m but the problem is it’s too big and it doesn’t reduce everything okay whatever I’ll I’ll deal with that later either way it’s a little bit closer now so then we got into like this incentive
(06:50) system and basically it’s like this is based on what we were talking about over here and so like the way to think about it is the workflow governance flows out of the cash Vault and all this other stuff the incentive system the and the executive decisions or I guess like just the incentive system is Flowing out of the token ball and then the executive decisions are things like we should be able to kick a Marketplace and we should be able to kick a vendor but these are sort of like the way the token flows are working in
(07:26) in in our or like in my mind at least like I think token should go to vendors I think tokens should go to judges I think tokens should go to marketplaces and I think that we also have this like sort of fuzzy idea of warehousing fulfillment I think that maybe is you know something that either the marketplaces can deal with themselves or can exist as service providers within the load pipe ecosystem eventually I know we’ve given like zero thought about it but this to me seems like a final like these are where the tokens are
(07:58) going this is what an outflow looks like outflows look like tokens to vendors to judges to marketplaces and warehousing fulfillment and then marketplaces get those tokens and decide how they’re then distributed to where vendors and warehous fulfillment so it begs this question of like what is the demand side of these tokens and that’s like sort of here right so there’s you know how do we decide voting power like what is the mechanism by which a token would sits in this token Vault or is issued by a smart
(08:33) contract ultimately becomes power to vote in all three of these areas right because it’s the same same voting power same vote that decides all three of these like decision genres and I had sort of outlined that or at least my thinking on it over here sorry go ahead yeah just briefly interject just for a clarification point of view we oh and I know this talk about it but it’s very much hierarchal and so we’re discussing the specific governance for the action is Tak and consequentially like triing down
(09:13) so we we had any sort of monetary policy we have the internal operations sort of policy and then we have and none of this is the market Marketplace specific like loing this is like how load itself well I mean to that to that point like the you know the workflow governance would also like so this is this is another question that we have like sort of unanswered but like we would also have like you know all of these genres of of decisions would exist at the lower level as well so so part of this discussion was I
(09:57) suppose partially coming up with the distinction specific governance what sort of role Lo type would have that is separate from you know markf which isn’t really included in this chart so much in the sense that whatever we do the load type level weating and yeah and correct me if I’m wrong about but it’s like the organizational mode as a middle you know how where self-managing in a lot of ways and then managing through prox here like through Rewards or through I think yeah I mean so so this is like
(10:46) again I’m just saying like you know this Dow should also have some of these components but you know yeah we’re like trying to talk think I think first about like what does the big picture look like um because we’re talking about this load like because the token will be issued here I I still haven’t like I don’t have like a good idea of what it means to translate this voting power system down to like Hamad da and what Hamad da governs or like like I mean sorry how how that functions in terms of
(11:24) like the staking contract like do you know what I mean like if if we create like a governance power here that governance power should not be this like governance power in the load pipe ecosystem should not be governance power in the H the down or any other like subow and governance power in a subow should not also be governance power in a different subow yeah sort sort of like a secularity like internally how is lo organiz outside of places and how do we do that far away right so workflow sorry to answer Jose’s
(12:03) question workflow governance at the load pipe level is is yeah people writing like smart contracts and like doing updates like software level updates doing things like creating the mechanisms for warehousing and fulfillment it’s also things like creating teams to monitor the like the incentive system and the effect of the incentive system so it’s like it would be like to create a team that you know makes recommendations to Dow on how to parameterize the incentive system so like you create you know like what what
(12:39) work needs to be done at load pipe well the voters of load pipe need to understand the effects that their decisions are having they also need to do things like monitor marketplaces and make recommendations to like kick marketplaces or vendors monitor vendors right so like workflows need to be established to pay people to do that sort of work which is most just informing the Dow and making proposals to the Dow of what things could or could not be done yes yes exactly so like the workflow governance is something that
(13:11) exists yeah workflow governance at the Hamza da level is actually probably a lot more involved than workplace go or workflow governance at the load pipe Dow level right because the Hamza D level you need to be you need to have an entire software engineering team that’s like making sure that like the the the Hamza da site is up they need to probably be running a relay node although again you know could be a team that’s running relay that’s focused on running relay nodes at the load pipe now level but yeah I mean like doing doing
(13:43) things like building you know like monitoring the reputation smart contracts like maintaining the indexer if that’s in ends up how we end up or if like that ends up being how we do frost Market reputation scores and everything like that and cross market reviews then like those those are like engineering things that need to happen at the load pipe level but yeah they function the same way like you can think of workflow governance as just like how do you run a company with a dow and workflow governance at the load pipe Dow level is
(14:15) like what company business functions does load pipe down need to do and at the hza level is like what company business functions does the HS the Dow need to do yeah yeah I mean it should be it should be ready to use out of the box but like it but like you we’re still going to need you know it’s software development right like there may be unintended consequences there may be things that need to be fixed there may need to be feature ads at some point in the future and and so yeah I mean like you know the
(14:48) Dow gets to decide what workflows are necessary for its functioning right even like goe even Bitcoin is getting upgraded still people think it doesn’t need to change but even Bitcoin needs development yeah I mean yeah maybe it’s like a an lip right a load pipe Improvement proposal right maybe maybe the workflow governance just funds the developers who are working on the core team on Improvement proposals to the protocol but the the ultimately it’s like the Dow gets to decide what workflow to establish and and yeah I
(15:24) mean like again this needs to be fleshed out a little bit more there’s certainly models of what that workflow looks like I forget who I was chatting to about it but like shape shift is a great example raid Guild is another great example of like places where they have a treasury and they fund like with raid Guild like they fund like rip raid here I’ll I’ll yeah so like you could look at like what their process is for sub submitting a raid Improvement Pro proposal or you could look at oh wait no no it’s not a shape it’s a
(15:59) shape sh and like this is how shapeshift does its Improvement proposals you could explore there the different like and they establish like workflows you know or sorry they call them work streams right so like you see they they create a proposal to continue funding the engineering work stream at certain intervals and that’s that’s sort of what that would look like and yeah so so at a certain point it could be that there are no work flows of load pipe down that load pipe down is just working and no no like actual like business business work
(16:36) needs to be done instead the only thing that the voters need to vote on is like the parameters of the incentive system or or whether or not to kick a vendor or kick a Marketplace although again I would say that like in the maker example which I didn’t give but like maker has like a risk team that’s constantly evaluating the collateralization RIS ratio of the system to determine whether or not it’s like at risk of default and and so like some teams that are like purely informational and research oriented towards like understanding what
(17:12) decisions need to be made and what you know how how the you know to to inform voters like what are the proper parameters and what are the effects of those decisions that might be like a a Contin anyway so that’s like sort of the nitty-gritty of like how workflow governance is going to work but again so in in tokenomics what we wanted talk a little bit more about is like what are these like outflows and what are the inflows to look more in their internal governance okay and so right now like the only thing that we’ve really
(17:45) identified as like a buide pressure is this idea of how we’re doing how we’re assigning voting power and that would be like we have a voting esro contract and this is where so we have this voting escro contract and we output the token from the token Vault like so the token comes out of the token Vault it goes to a user goes to a user that user Great Is it okay there we go that user deposits into the token escro contract or the voting escro contract the token goes back into the token Vault to be distributed and the representative token
(18:47) comes back to the the user so okay all right and then they use this representative token to vote on proposals and then the other one we were saying is just that like the reward for staking as a vendor should just be maybe this representative contract so okay let’s I are there any questions or clarifications there I’d love to hear people’s input on what that means or any questions to clarify like how that might work okay B so I understand that token vaults is where where the tokens are distributed from to just judges venders
(19:33) and all that whereas the cash fault is where the tokens are distributed to those devs who work on the workflow governance and take decisions uh for the protocol infrastructure level I would say like the the thing to think is like the token vault is like we control the monetary supply of the token Vault and like the token vault is is something that yeah again we can say like okay these we want to maybe even print more tokens to to incentivize these like activities which would like drive down the value of the token versus cash and
(20:10) or would would also maybe dilute the the power of like Governors based on what they had like Stak in the voting escro contract whereas the cash vault is where like the proceeds of individual sales like so the transaction fees are going into the cash vault in the form of heat USBC and like hard spendable currencies and then those are being paid like theoretically you know like tokens could also become an incentive in the coordinate work stream or workflow so but yeah that that’s the basic distinction okay got it got it well how
(20:48) about the staking to be like a vendor and for the slashing so so yeah so that’s like here let’s let’s say here is like so that would be this one down here like a vendor would State and that’s I guess like a vendor would stay I’m trying to figure out where to where to put this because this I guess this is just like a function down here we have our vendor staking contract so this is another I like I agree this is like another thing that like that load pipe just does so let’s create another
(21:30) so we have our vendor staking contract we have a vendor they now this is this is a good question is like do they stake token or do they stake money because in the case that they stake token if a if we have to slash their state then we have to sell the token on the open market to to like make up the difference than like make a you know make a not not necessarily if we’re sashing the token what we can do is repurpose it and put it back into I don’t think we have this but like an emissions Vault and so their token
(22:22) feeds into our normal toonomic or economic design so well what no no no because we need to we need to like refund you know like usdc or e or whatever the the the the dispute the other dispute party paid with see right yeah so so like there has to be we can’t just like give them token we have to like convert it to whatever it is that they like made the payment with initially and so if we if the Sten contract requires like if the staking contract re Ires money rather than token or some combination of token and money that
(23:07) emission like so then it’s a question of like okay where does the money that they’re staking go to it needs to be held in well yeah I guess we haven’t really settled on this question that creates like like so let’s if it’s token then it creates this like sell pressure in the event that their their stake is slashed if it’s money have some sort of like currency Vault secondary ccy I can’t I can’t actually hear what you’re saying sorry I I’ll type okay so like and it also like then just
(23:57) begs this like larger question so so yeah vendor escrow is a system that also needs to be designed a little bit here and it is also something that load pipe does right right as opposed to like it’s not something load pipe decides it’s something load pipe does yep yep Jose Jose’s saying in the chat I don’t know Jose if you want to speak that out but I mean what do you think Bo of actually refunding people in load token maybe maybe we give the customer load token instead of usdc I mean they might most likely would sell it but they
(24:32) might not sell it but well and and again the value of the token individually doesn’t necessarily need to go up a successful token is one where the value in aggregate I think goes up and there is also by pressure in governing the system right so there’s by pressure in governing the system there’s also by pressure in instantiating a subow a Marketplace which go go back to John’s different mechanisms of like cuz like these are talking about like the mechanisms by which a market establishes The Vault and what happens to that like
(25:12) Market’s Vault right so except in this one where like vendors and marketplaces sort of exist on the same like level I mean tell tell me if I’m wrong John but I think this one is like vendors and marketplaces both get emissions and you know I mean I don’t know we could we could sort of like govern them differently in terms of like how leaky their vaults are but yeah that that is like a sort of separate discussion but that also creates a demand side so it’s not it’s not the the only demand is not
(25:47) just like vendor escrow it would be vendor escrow if we you know require them to State token but then it introduces another problem which is like sort of the oracle problem which is like how like it also introduces like volatility risk so like so the Oracle problem is first we need to interpret the value of the token in terms of every supported currency within the system right like it doesn’t know natively like what the value of the token is it can only look at things like the chain link Oracle or like a Unis
(26:27) swap pool to deter the value in term of of the token in terms of like ethereum or usdc which would allow us to then calculate like the maximum allowed like escrow amount that an individual vendor can have whereas that I mean I guess we still have the like we still have the Oracle problem no matter what if we’re limiting the total allowed escrow based on a vendor state but it’s it’s not as volatile if the required stake is a hard currency like e or rep Bitcoin or usdc right because like if the value of our
(27:02) token wildly swings then it wildly changes like the amount of of things that people can have in escrow and that’s maybe not a desirable like property for a vendor right like the if the value of our token goes down quite a bit and they have more locked in escrow than is technically Allowed by the system like what happened right they just stop being able to make sales until they have to buy more tokens and I don’t know like you know it’s hard when when we’re saying that that’s like a core component of the
(27:41) system that like vendors must stake I think we need it to be a little bit more predictable which is and I’m just like having this thought now I I would love to hear other people yeah I mean my my thought to this is I kind of like the idea of not making it like fully quired but transparent so that the the whole Community could see how much this vendor has locked up maybe it could be an eth or usdc or rap Bitcoin or or load token but it would be locked for the minimum amount of time we would we decide and then customers or anyone can see how
(28:20) much this vendor has kind of skin in a game or or at at stake to lose if they’re a bad actor is kind of the rather than making it like you have to lock this up in our token or in any token we basically you just see that and I think you were getting at this before is like this determines like a like a displayed collateralization ratio rather than calization ratio yeah it seems kind of cool because it’s more web 3ish right like CU then you can have people just saying like I don’t B maybe maybe people
(28:54) could filter on the marketplace buy that or or people could recommend that in on cryp Twitter saying I don’t buy from people with less than x% or etc etc you know I think it’s like a community you know I kind of like things to be like kind of like evolving with the community and just transparent so the vendor Stak is displayed and I would say reserved to like if if they have more than than what their like escrow amount is then maybe there should be something like okay I’m just going to say I’m going to say the
(29:27) vendor stake is displayed to buyer to customers okay vendor STI is displayed to customers let them make their own decisions about the reputation and insance their purchase could possibly Reserve like you know a stake well while open escro exist to cover cover outstanding liabilities yeah okay and so in that world like vendor saking contract like we want to incentivize vendors to STI right and so that’s why I think like emissions should go to vendors based on their stake and then where do the underlying tokens go maybe they just go to the the
(30:25) like swap pool so like vendor staking contract would function sort of like this like token and and let me grab a a hard currency here I don’t know if everybody agrees you I don’t know if everybody agrees dollars is hard money Jose’s Bank also saying it in the chat yeah yeah it’s representative of a hard currency it’s at least stable I’ll say that well they say pegged not stable but pegged yeah what is the what is that is what drives the demand of the token up yeah okay okay how do stable coins reduce
(31:04) volatility they token am value of items for percentage of it that tends to Anchor the value token to the value of the merchandise or selling and by that proy to the value of usdt I mean yeah I don’t I don’t disagree I don’t think that’s necessarily wrong I mean depends on like how much excess Supply we have in the system and I think that all comes down to like decisions we make about like team allocation and token investing and what we how we deal with like investment and things like that and then like yeah
(31:34) this question of like modeling but again as Mike was saying you know maybe we don’t like directly make it a requirement of the system to be fully collateralized we just like allow people to sort of make their own decisions about like the reputation of sellers but in that world we want to incentivize the vendors to state to some degree and then we want to do something with their money and then we want to Emmit rewards to them based on their state agre ratio yes it all comes down to that clation ratio depends on the rate at which merchandise
(32:02) vendor sell has a problem stake must be returned to the buyer turns company P paying yeah I think I could answer that so Jose I mean if you’re a buyer on here and you see that the sell Stak usdt and you don’t think that’s a good collateral and that makes it riskier to you because you don’t believe in US dollars but you see another vendor to St WRA Bitcoin or eth and you believe in that is a stronger hard money that you rely on you maybe would buy from that vendor versus the other because of that
(32:32) collateral H yeah that’s an idea you could also leave the the decision about how much what what the collateralization ratio would be for a certain merchandise to the seller you understand so for example if I’m selling a some edible item that can only be sent but cannot be sent back there’s there wouldn’t be any collateral because it’s understood that there’s not going to be any returns I’m not going to any return on that merchandise so would collateral if it was never delivered in the first
(33:05) place yeah but then I I as a seller could decide the collateralization ratio and buyers would see if that collateralization ratio would suit them I mean I don’t want to get I don’t want to open a box can of worms but what if you sold them something they killed them you know there’s also you talk about insurance right what if what if it was like a poison food you know I mean it’s getting kind of complex but we are working outside of the normal system right so the normal system covers that in insurance and other other
(33:39) products I mean the fascinating part about this whole thing is that we have to re from the point of view of the marketplace from the point of view of the marketplace Mike the the idea is that the marketplace should get the merchandise delivered to the buyers I mean we shouldn’t be liable for any other side effects of of you know of of like like what the example that you say well you say that but if you look at Amazon they’re liable if you sell food on Amazon it’s very difficult to sell food on Amazon you have to have licenses
(34:12) you have to go through certifications it’s not like you it’s actually the opposite of what you said about you don’t need much liability or collateral CU you’re selling edible edible is very very risky because it can kill people more easily of course anything can kill somebody but there’s much more product it’s called Product liability insurance you need product liability insurance so we we don’t have this in web 3 that I’m aware of maybe there’s some kind of product that we can plug in
(34:39) but I think that’s what some of this is trying to solve I believe these stakes and this collateral it’s like insurance it’s it’s again we’re going into unknown space it’s International it’s Etc but I just thought I don’t want to open this can of worms but I that’s what the state could represent well that that sure complicates things well it complicates it not complicates it because maybe Hamza could say either Marketplace could set the requirements of the stake versus or the buyer themsel could just decide
(35:14) not to buy from this vendor because they don’t feel collateralized enough right and then maybe people on crypto Twitter or whatever could say we feel that the the lowest bar we could accept for this this kind of product should be X you know it’s it’s like market dynamics but but Mike shouldn’t since yeah you’re dealing with International jurisdictions and all that and that that sounds complicated but maybe Andreas could could pitch into that but if if a user is is harmed or killed by some something
(35:48) that he bought on the marketplace wouldn’t any legal action occur outside of the marketplace I mean directly between the used and the vendor not involving the marketplace again I don’t know if we’re probably a little bit off topic but I feel like a somewhat thought-provoking Andre is here do you have a opinion on that Andre or thoughts so it depends guys it depends theoretically let’s say if the marketplace is merely facilitating transactions it shouldn’t be liable but it depends you know how much
(36:26) let’s say this varies country to country and it depends you know where the let’s say where the person dies and what does the what does the law of that country says about the responsibility of a Marketplace you know for for facilitating that in the for example let’s take Amazon as an example in the US before Amazon was considered only as a facilitator of the trade and hence it was not cons consider that they were responsible for what vendors sold over time that opinion has changed because Amazon can to a certain extent
(37:08) manipulate and control what products get sold against other products and for that reason and other reasons now the let’s say the the predominant legal opinion is that Amazon can be sued for the products that and there is there is a precedent in the Sports I mean I can if anybody’s interested I can share it with you but now there is a precedent that where Amazon was sued for you know for allowing something to be sold there so that’s why they they are very careful in gting products Etc because they can be
(37:43) held liable and that’s also why Amazon enforces product liability insurance so they can protect themselves you know by means of of insured sellers so in the case of of load pipe for example or Hamza let’s say I don’t think Hamza can be held responsible because Hamza has to it depends how we you know how the the the marketplace sort of promotes products or allows the promotion of products Etc but the less the marketplace can manipulate and control what is offered the less it can be held liable sorry I don’t know yeah that
(38:27) pretty much clears everything so if ham is decentralized and doesn’t interfere in the marketplace then we don’t have to deal with that kind of worms I mean no and remember that these are multi these are international shipments where you know one one seller in X country is perhaps shipping something to a seller in another country so it’s it’s it’s very it would be hard you know in my opinion to hold the marketplace liable for for all all these po potential you know conflicts Etc so yeah I it also it
(39:05) would be impossible for hamson to probably comply with every single law where anybody buys but but it is it is something to consider depending you know depending on many factors it’s not easy for me to give an answer because it depends in the end for example what’s what stimulus or what incentives we offer where we’re going to start offering the products and then I can look for example in one country we’re going to sell and see what’s the position of that country you know with with marketplaces with local
(39:38) marketplaces for example yeah okay I I cannot answer this because it’s it’s a comp issue but generally speaking it’s what I told you the Le the more power the marketplace has over the the actors and to influence prices products Etc the more likely it is to be it is to be hold liable if it’s a decentralized platform where sellers actually make their own decisions which is the idea that I get from what we’re trying to do I think the liability is much less likely to happen or to be enforced
(40:15) yeah so that’s that’s I guess the we’re a little bit off track maybe but that’s what the idea of the stake means to to at least in my mind is that’s like what the seller has is collateral for all of this kind of liability and you know as much as I’m a seller a few of us are sellers we don’t like to deal with this but I think it makes the buyers more at ease they don’t you know we’re not trying to be a silk road right we’re trying to have Justice we’re trying to have ways to settle these
(40:43) issues so I think that’s what the seller would have like at stake literally for disputes and I I think the buyers would like to know that because I think that they do like that on Amazon or on web 2 marketplaces so I I do believe web 3 marketplaces should have some kind of process he’s not just say oh it’s it’s decentralized it’s Anonymous like you don’t have any you know you’re a buyer you can’t do you can’t really get anything back Etc you know I think that’s what we’re trying to not be we’re
(41:12) trying to give some web to benefits for buyers in this platform yeah but that would be the whole purpose of the of the of the escro exactly that would be the insurance of the buyer yeah this is yeah so I hope I don’t know if everybody’s on on the same page but or likes this idea but but basically I think that’s what the sellers are locking up and that’s what they could of course lose or or show the show their commitments to the community especially the buyer okay I’m sorry I was talking the
(41:47) microphone is off I don’t know that the state can I mean I suppose that like that Justice is like sort of a morphus right doesn’t have to necessarily like be over and maybe it is general purpose right maybe it is like a dispute can be raised it’s like hey you this this product was harmful or [ __ ] up in some way it’s another thing I’ve been thinking of recently is like how do you allow like someone to like raise like ability to that as Place happen right like what are the users that that of propos but yeah I mean like
(42:29) I don’t know maybe maybe there’s [Music] some vendors or if that service even exists or how we would implement it but I but I don’t know that vendor staking can factor into that because vendor like I don’t know the rest of the system only really cares about transactions I mean I while I do you know I’m I’m not trying I think maybe it could evolve in that way though could the staking be maybe another maybe there’s a Dap that somebody builds like somebody a community like a third party
(43:04) developer that makes a startup for this and it connects to this and is utilized for that is that is that something we could think about yeah someone could build a you know product liability doubt or like yeah like could could build some sort of like product liability fund but but then it’s like a question of like like I don’t know product liability I think to to Andre’s Point like product liability assumes a jurisdiction right so like when he’s talking about like the case law against Amazon I assume that’s in
(43:40) the US I I don’t I don’t know like where that is right and so like in the US correct yeah exactly so like if so that’s a Us Fort precedent so like they have the jurisdiction to sue Amazon within the us but then it’s like cuz like how do you like how do you do product liability insurance when like say someone has like product liability insurance for like Argentina well I think but then it get sued in I think that’s you know like that’s the beautiful thing I think what we’re building we’re building this we’re
(44:14) building our own governments and our own Justice and I think it’s kind of hard to imagine but I can if this really does take off we would have prodct liability insurance program now in Argentina and Venezuela guys just for your information you can get product liability for World coverage that’s not a problem we have it in the company that I work for and that’s typically product liability fits in US coverage and the rest of the world and it’s not that expensive for the rest of the world but the moment you include
(44:48) the US it goes through the roof but I’m just saying this because that would be basically for the V vendor protection right like let’s say if they sell a product that can injure someone then it’s typically up to the vendor to protect themselves with this kind of insurance the the the marketplace can offer in the same way that Amazon offers vendors the they do facilitate the the product liability insurance because it it is cheaper if you contract through the Amazon suppliers of of insurance but they’re not forced to do it you know the
(45:25) that’s normally the the Li the potential liability of the vendor and whether the vendor wants to protect itself it’s his own decision however depending on the type of goods certain countries can probably ask for for like for insurance but you know that that’s up to the seller right if you want to sell like a medical device or something like that in a Marketplace you might be required by certain laws of certain countries that you have to provide this insurance right but you know we don’t know what people
(46:01) are going to sell we don’t know which countries Etc I just want to maybe take this back to Bo maybe we move on from this on this call but I I don’t know is this a good thing we’re discussing I mean product liability insurance is a thing I mean Amazon sellers have to buy it and there’s third party I mean is this maybe not a core feature or a buy side but could we potentially use this token for that in a maybe in a in a in a in a road map long term I I have a comment to that right because I I think
(46:33) it’s helpful but I don’t think we should strive too far away from what we’re doing here right and many of these option I wrote in the chat as well these are all good problems to have because they provide opportunities for future community members to develop for themselves and I I think if if I’m not you know imagining this myself it seems like what we are going to do here is a Justice protocol and a pretty sturdy transaction system right and and if we if we start kind of getting caught in the I’m not going to
(47:02) call it the small stuff but these are all great ways for the community to kind of pitch in themselves right that that that’s something we can set up in the sidelines when we get closer to you know just having an AC platform I mean as much as I agree with that in in principle I I will say that like that is like when so so you’ll notice like so I don’t know if this makes sense to everyone else but this is sort of how I like logically have like set up this diagram and maybe I need to clean up like everything around it but
(47:32) like for now this diagram right we have load piped out we have the horizontal to it are the decisions that can be made and the things that are owned by it and I guess maybe like cash and like and then voting power is what governs is the meta governance of load pipe G then we have what are the services that it provides below it right and it provides those services to subd Downs right and then these the genres of decisions that the subow can made and then the services that the the subow provides right product liability for vendors okay we we
(48:06) outlined that a little bit Marketplace UI possibly warehousing fulfillment maybe I’ll add another question mark here but the thing to keep in mind is that we’re building this right now right like this is this is the most immediate thing that we’re building and so yeah I as much as I agree maybe like you know again this is like a tokenomics call so so maybe we shouldn’t focus on it as as as much I I do agree that it was like sort of a good digression and something that maybe was outside of like our view
(48:35) but like we’re building this direction and all this is like a little bit more longterm like where do we want to eventually be but all of this is to ultimately support like the building of this and the incentiv like incentivizing these people to join this right like that’s that’s the go the goal of like all of this is get these people vendors to join these Market places yeah this is exactly how I feel I feel like my my diagrams always end up like this but it is also just this like big complicated
(49:11) system and you know we’re drilling down into you know like some of the the the more specific places but but I mean does this construction make sense to people at least yeah it’s amazing I still have to probably digest it a bit more too and I think others here but but it’s it’s it’s definitely getting much more clear to all of us yeah I think the same I think the same it’s you know this is a complicated conversation regardless right so I think compartmentalizing it makes a lot of sense and you know sometimes we we
(49:45) Sidetrack with these conversations about liability insurance I think maybe there’s just a box for that right because these factors remain relevant until yeah Fus oh yeah you have them perfect yeah so exactly I still feel like maybe we don’t call it prod liability insurance but that’s what the staking somewhat represents if there’s a if there’s a problem with the product what about a quality control problem what if it’s what if the thing breaks after three two two weeks it’s not like
(50:11) maybe they’re not I mean is that included in this I mean where is the line I mean I think that right I don’t know if that’s like product liability insurance because I do think product liability insurance refers specifically to like a court judgment where like someone has been awarded damages by a court within a jurisdiction and then that person has to pay out fiat currency to like settle a a judgment made against him whereas a dispute within our system like like like I mean it is it is a good like maybe interesting question of like
(50:44) a dispute settlement within our system do we make some sort of like do we add some sort of like claw or box or something like that that says like I absolve you know I mean I don’t know how legally tenable like a lot of those things are but like it would be sort of ridiculous if some if like a customer went to a dispute and like said I want my money back and then got it back and then ensued but like also what happens if like someone you yeah what if a product kills something right so and a court more than what they pay for it
(51:19) sorry Bo just just it kind of came to mind I think a a question am I honestly curious about hearing hearing about this is how much of the value chain we guys want to take up right and and if if you look at the Amazon value chain from you know the product production all the way to the product being in use you know what part of that value chain is it that we want to take up and don’t say all of it because that’s not where you start that’s where you end up and and just just my comment to this is that it
(51:46) sounds like what we want to do very very well of that entire value chain is just a transaction well the the idea is it’s modular sense yeah but but I guess I don’t know if it’s a deflecting the question but like I would love to see thirdparty developers like you mentioned earlier that wanted tackle certain problems in this Pro process to I mean even kind of fits the name load pipe they want to plug in on the supply chain from liability shipping Etc in into this protocol yeah that’s fine we can do that
(52:18) but that’s not our first problem to solve right I think what Bo has presented here is exactly what we’re trying to solve and as much as I love to squeeze more things into it it becomes a problem that becomes much more complex than it already is and that’s that’s why I’m curious like is everybody on the same page or I think are we are we doing a lot more than I brought that up because yeah we’re we’re talking about in a chat too but I think I brought up this staking and liability just as an
(52:45) exercise for the demand side of the token because I felt BR felt there might not be enough buy side there must be more sell side so I brought that up as a buy side variable not in the short term but in the long term that that was I think why we got on that that that direction I just like to say one thing it’s a very complex problem and a complex problem has to be broken up into digestible parts and solved individually yeah I second I second that and and that’s also why this this doesn’t become you know product
(53:23) liability is for sure a problem but it might not be our to solve yeah like I I think guys we’re we’re kind of confusing terms here because originally we have let’s say we the marketplace can offer a certain level of protection on behalf of the buyer and that was the whole idea of the escro and then on top of that the the the lock in or the the Stak of the tokens is is I don’t think it’s meant to be a product liability insurance at all because this can product liability insurance is really for millions of
(54:02) dollars typically but when we we cannot ask a vendor to lock in millions of dollars of of worth of tokens so we cannot confuse one thing with the other the point of locking tokens or staking them is actually basically on behalfs of the sellers reputation at some point once we get more granular we have to decide what is more more feasible from for the point from the point of view of the of the marketplace you know success if we should try to push more the Escrow because it’s more likely to be accepted and more economical for the parties
(54:42) transacting or and or push also the staking because there are benefits that the the vendors can get from that you know they get different benefits from staking than they get from actually being part of an escrow if they’re part of an escrow they know they can sell maybe small items whatever they’re they’re able to sell because the buyers they won’t pay too much attention to who is the vendor if there if there is an escrow account if there isn’t and maybe we’re talking about you know building
(55:17) the vendor’s reputation or the vendor can see that they can make money even from the token then you know it’s time to discuss the the staking with the vendors but you know that they are they have different purposes they they’re not trying to achieve the same thing the escrow and the product liability and the staking well and one one thing to consider is you know as as you know like back to like John’s idea of the Vault leak which is like sort of a more General concept right like this staking contract could also have like this this
(55:55) Stak stake is kind of evolv that could also leak back to like load pipe Dow it’s also a state and contract that could leak right to Hamza da for instance and one thing that that is maybe possible and you know you see it with I’m trying to think of opis opis is an example of a company that does health insurance and benefits packages for Dows and basically it’s like they collectively bargain with a health insurance company it’s like mostly for like us because says free insurance free healthare more or less but like in the
(56:31) US if you have a dow and you want to give Health Care to like a group of decentralized employees you use opis who has like you know represents multiple DS and they’ve negotiated with the healthcare companies for like a single R right and so like what we could have theoretically and this is like this is not like a means to construct it maybe demonstrate sort of the power of like Dow this hza da could negotiate with one product liability insurance provider and then just allow vendors to stake and opt in and then their vault could just
(57:02) like leak which is the payment to H theal for their opting into this like Collective insurance policy so so that’s that’s one possible construction guess I guess the exercise of this is would that be beneficial to the tokenomics of load pipe in that example I think it would right or but it might would it would that affect anything with the tokenomics in what you just said I mean I think I think that yeah that would be like maybe money state leak because again it’s like how do you pay for it right in terms of
(57:32) like the tokenomics for load pipe again and and and again to John’s Point earlier right like breaking these down into individual pieces so this is an example of breaking that down into an individual piece right we understand that like vendors are getting possibly emissions from the load pipe level and then also from the marketplace level that’s going to the vendor based on some criteria that we set within the vendor staking contract possibly augmented by whatever stake they have but definitely influenced by their Big R reputation as
(58:08) we go back to this right reputation factors into like the question of how and and and then it’s like are they getting incentives or are they leaking back to the treasury and it’s like putting a putting a thumb in the damn and it’s like the leap is less right with vendors I think it’s emmissions and with Governors I think it’s leak so like Governors have a decreasing amount of voting power over time whereas vendors get are rewarded with an increasing amount of voting power based on their like good reputation within the system
(58:41) and so like the basic token flow looks like this where you have an LP pool that like the underlying Capital vendor putting in the staking contract is going into that is like being you know like maintained by the pipe Dow which has control over a token vault which is adjusting its position within an LP pool based on maybe some Target like value rate and then that token vault is what is emitting then tokens back to the vendors right similarly where you have Demand with Governors to put into the voting Esco contract their tokens go
(59:18) directly into the voting Esco contract and then directly back into the token Vault they get this representative token which is leaking power over time time creates this natural demand to control all of these genres of decisions which means also like you have to have this in order to augment this but if you’re a good vendor then you get direct power to like augment this which also decreases over time right and and this is a way of like creating demand and putting it back into the ecos system and now we just
(59:52) need to do similar things with which is what like John has done a little bit here with marketplaces right like what is the reputation for marketplaces right what is the reputation you know like how are they how do we determine their like distribution what does their vault type look like and so maybe that’s another one here like you know right here where we outline what does making a Marketplace down look like and then again we haven’t given any thought to warehousing fulfillment but then also we needed to Define these token flows for
(1:00:24) judges but this is a simple outline of what like the token flow might look like for vendors and so yeah you know in terms of breaking down the problem into its different pieces understanding these as the actors within the ecosystem and the people that we have to play with and then understanding like and then building out these little models of like what incent what do we want to incentivize how is this slash right that we would have to draw some connection here to this dispute resolution process right and that’s you know what happens
(1:00:53) to the tokens in that case right like there’s a lot of like call it like flowcharts right there’s a lot of if then statements there’s a lot of conditions and so on and so forth and so but yeah I mean I I don’t know people are cool for working with this model like I can clean up all of this like ancillary stuff and we can start thinking here or if someone has a better suggestion of how to organize these thoughts then please let me know but we are at like 15 minutes over our lot we progress today but I think we made a lot
(1:01:29) I think we did well this is great Bo thank you I think seems like we kind of getting clear again the pr liability was just an exercise I guess I instigated that but it’s just it’s a good healthy exercise I think but this is this is looking solid to me and yeah we are 50 minutes over it is Friday so oh thank you I did want to highlight one thing so like when we were talking about you know like how complicated this is like starting to look here hold on like so my favorite project is high right now and high is like just
(1:02:03) literally a stable point right it’s controlled Peg stable point this is what their like governance and like there’s not many decisions that can be made within the system it’s a governance minimized decision but this is like their flowchart of like what the different smart contracts look like what the different decision points look like so so these things and and this is like a very good team with a lot of experience in the issue in the area and so just like in terms of understanding like how complicated ours looks this is
(1:02:33) this is a good example of I me and you could look at maker Dow’s docs as well and like how these decision flows works and which smart contracts they flow you know they flow through like it is just a complex system it starts to look like a transistor you know and so some complication in the drawing is maybe a bit inevitable all right I think I think yeah of course this is is very complex and there’s so much we can do with this which I think it’s a great opportunity is 7% a chat so I think that’s a wrap for now and then we’ll get
(1:03:07) back on track next next Friday will be the next session right for this is there any homework we should do or next steps I I don’t know like if people want to continue to think about it right and make some proposals you know feel free I know we’re all like stretched pretty thin and still like it takes some like focused and thoughtful time you know like some some focus and blocked off time to really like give it thought but yeah I mean you know and one of the best ways to do it I think is just like either like book a session with me or
(1:03:39) James and if you’re like if you have some idea or thought like let’s let’s just be collaborative about it and yeah all right thank you thank you bro thank you everybody for your time take care thank you guys all right bye [Music] hey [Music]